Better Player: 1987-'90 Magic vs 2021-'24 Jokic

[Matt15]

Who was the better player overall for this 4 year stretch?

[DorianRo]

Magic won 2 titles in that timeframe. Joker can't even get by 50 win teams. To be honest they were lucky to even get by the Lakers this year. Lakers were in position in almost all the games to take them

[falcolombardi]

Magic won 2 titles. Joker can't even get by 50 win teams. To be honest they were lucky to even get by the Lakers this year.

I mean, they beat the 2020 clippers which were a near 60 win pace team lol but otherwise is true they have not beaten any juggernauts

[Special_Puppy]

Magic won 2 titles in that timeframe. Joker can't even get by 50 win teams. To be honest they were lucky to even get by the Lakers this year. Lakers were in position in almost all the games to take them

What % of the difference in team success would you say is because Magic is a more valuable player than Jokic and what % is the difference in supporting casts?

[SimonDigg]

Magic won 2 titles in that timeframe. Joker can't even get by 50 win teams. To be honest they were lucky to even get by the Lakers this year. Lakers were in position in almost all the games to take them

The lakers only were in that position by attacking Jokic too on offense, with only 3-4 players on the entire roster showing up a overall it’s wild that it could have gone 6 or 7, considering how insanely well built one team is around Joker and the other one is a practical joke on lebron and AD

[tsherkin]

Magic won 2 titles in that timeframe. Joker can't even get by 50 win teams. To be honest they were lucky to even get by the Lakers this year. Lakers were in position in almost all the games to take them

Two titles. With Kareem, Worthy, Coop, Byron Scott and some other quality guys like Kurt Rambis, Mychal Thompson and AC Green.

VERY large difference in cast. Speaking about team-based achievements to describe who is the better player is usually a pretty bad mistake.

[rk2023]

I take Magic, but winning bias in this context is silly.

[parsnips33]

Lakers should hang an "almost lost in 6 or 7 games instead of 5" banner. Holy cow what an impressive accomplishment

[OhayoKD]

Never beat a 50-win team is dumb when the Clippers were at a near 60-win pace

[BroKamina]

Never beat a 50-win team is dumb when the Clippers were at a near 60-win pace

This is great until you realize doc rivers was at the helm!

Never beat a 50 win team (except one with doc rivers) is a funny headline, he’s very lucky to have a championship with that headline

[ty 4191]

Jokic, and it's not even remotely close, honestly.

How many players, period, have had a 4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated 5/24/24:

Consider that in the past 341 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.7 Relative True Shooting% (rTS%) (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY SINGLE 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.6 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for 4 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.7 PER across the last 341 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and LeBron James.

2. His BPM the last 4 full seasons is 12.3, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .656 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .365 from three point range on very high volume for a center (3.2/game).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

[SportsGuru08]

Magic. When Joker beats a 50-win team in a playoff series, I'll consider him.

[tsherkin]

Magic. When Joker beats a 50-win team in a playoff series, I'll consider him.

This is such an odd, empty and team-rooted criterion.

You remember how Kareem averaged 23/8/3 and won both an MVP and a Finals MVP in the first 7 years of playing with Magic? Or Jamaal Wilkes averaged 20.2 ppg and was a 2-time All-Star in his first half-decade with Magic? Or how Norm Nixon averaged 16.9 ppg and 7.9 apg alongside Magic for four years? Or how Michael Cooper was All-Defensive 1st Team five times and a DPOY once with Magic? And Byron Scott?

And you want to compare team-related success between these two?

That seems... short-sighted.

[SportsGuru08]

Magic. When Joker beats a 50-win team in a playoff series, I'll consider him.

This is such an odd, empty and team-rooted criterion.

You remember how Kareem averaged 23/8/3 and won both an MVP and a Finals MVP in the first 7 years of playing with Magic? Or Jamaal Wilkes averaged 20.2 ppg and was a 2-time All-Star in his first half-decade with Magic? Or how Norm Nixon averaged 16.9 ppg and 7.9 apg alongside Magic for four years? Or how Michael Cooper was All-Defensive 1st Team five times and a DPOY once with Magic? And Byron Scott?

And you want to compare team-related success between these two?

That seems... short-sighted.

Magic won two Finals MVPs before Kareem's in '85, one of which came when Kareem was sitting at home for the clincher.

All those other guys you mentioned were on the team the year before Magic arrived and were beaten in the 2nd round in 5 games.

[TheGOATRises007]

I think I'd lean Magic, but I think they're both in the same tier.

Just a bit below the GOAT peaks.

[tsherkin]

Magic won two Finals MVPs before Kareem's in '85, one of which came when Kareem was sitting at home for the clincher.

All those other guys you mentioned were on the team the year before Magic arrived and were beaten in the 2nd round in 5 games.

You understand this in no way addresses anything I said, right? Magic had an MVP-level Kareem at the start and HUGE depth all around. To act like that situation was the same as Jokic in Denver is non-sensical in the extreme.

The Sonics who beat the Lakers in 79 went on to win the title. The chemistry on the Lakers was very different, with Adrian Dantley coming off the bench, no Cooper, no Worthy, no Rambis, no Jim Chones (who played 29 mpg for 82 games in 1980), no Spencer Haywood...

A nearly totally-different team outside of Kareem, Nixon and Silk. C'mon, man.

[wafflzgod]

Magic, imo. As good as Jokic is (prob the 2nd best in this regard), I truly think Magic is unmatched in terms of control over the game and finding answers over and over to the opposing defense. Magic is the best transition 'weapon' ever in my opinion, but I think he also became a half-court maestro by the late 80's/turn of the decade. I think they are roughly similar in terms of defensive impact (in the neutral-ish range, maybe slight negative), but I think there is more ambiguity regarding Jokic's defense.

[scrabbarista]

All due respect to Magic, who I have 6th all-time behind Russell, I think it's Jokic and not close.

[Redmoon]

Jokic for me. I do think magic being a non big and therefore not as big of a defensive liability helps magics overall impact.