Rank as scorers : Jokic, LeBron, KD

[bigboi]

They’d get torched defensively though.

But they wouldn’t. Shaq is a flat out better defender than Jokic

Shaq's rs peak saw him getting cooked in 3 out of 4 series opposing bigs and saw Lakers fall from one of the best rs teams ever to one of the weakest champions ever because of thier rim defense and overall defense plummeting.

Shaq gets torched by the wolves

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

[bigboi]

I mean, this series exposed some flaws for Jokic, but it wasn’t so bad that it means KD is better lmao. KD has fallen flat on his face worse than this, multiple times too.

Again Jokic benefits from being in a small ball era. You put centers that are actually his size, his stats are no where near as good. Kd is flat out a better scorer. He can score in every way possible

I don’t understand, are Gobert and KAT small or something? Reid gives up size, but he’s also strong, fast, athletic, and smart. This was straight up old school lineups with 2 bigs that Jokic went up against.

Also, KD benefits a lot from being a small ball 4, he gets more of an advantage than Jokic does from the small ball era.

And I remember Shaq getting defended a lot by smaller guys with lower centers of gravity, like Malik Rose. Gobert, KAT, Reid are no smaller than what he went up against.

Yes, they are small compared to Shaq. Next question

[OhayoKD]

But they wouldn’t. Shaq is a flat out better defender than Jokic

Shaq's rs peak saw him getting cooked in 3 out of 4 series opposing bigs and saw Lakers fall from one of the best rs teams ever to one of the weakest champions ever because of thier rim defense and overall defense plummeting.

Shaq gets torched by the wolves

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

He couldn't even destroy the 2000 Pacers or 2000 Portland. How is he destroying a wolves team with much better paint-protection, longer and stronger perimeter dudes and a center who is a much better stretch big?

[bigboi]

They’d get torched defensively though.

But they wouldn’t. Shaq is a flat out better defender than Jokic

Possibly, don’t think his IQ is as good as Jokic, don’t think his hands are as good, and I think Jokic gives more consistent effort. Shaq is definitely more gifted physically though and would be a better rim deterrent. Think he would get punished with the PnR and outside shooting that’s out there today though, and his conditioning for the most part would be an issue. I think Jokic handles switches better than Shaq.

Offensively, I’ve seen Shaq get slowed down by similar defensive lineups, we can stop pretending like he was dropping 40/20 every game no matter what. And he’s absolutely a liability from the line. Also needs to be set up by reliable guards, he can’t create something out of nothing like Jokic can from anywhere. His passing also isn’t anywhere close to Jokic.

Idk, I’m still taking peak Jokic over Shaq, even though Jokic overall had a tough series and in my mind gets knocked down a peg from the true GOAT peak discussions (LeBron and Jordan for me basically).

Jokic is flat out just not better than Shaq lmao. Jokic isn’t better than Duncan either. Jokic isn’t better than Giannis either. Yall just put Jokic on some other worldly pedastal based on nothing.

Again, if Westbrook put up this stat line with terrible defense, you and others would be calling it a bad game but now you’re trying to prop up KAT and Gobert to prop up Jokic’s performance

[bigboi]

Let’s address this nonsense

I'll take Jokic's scoring vs Minesotta over KD considering defensive attention

You do that. I’m not and most people aren’t

[therealbig3]

You have basically no counter points, just saying the same thing over and over again and not actually responding to ****. What’s the point?

[therealbig3]

Again Jokic benefits from being in a small ball era. You put centers that are actually his size, his stats are no where near as good. Kd is flat out a better scorer. He can score in every way possible

I don’t understand, are Gobert and KAT small or something? Reid gives up size, but he’s also strong, fast, athletic, and smart. This was straight up old school lineups with 2 bigs that Jokic went up against.

Also, KD benefits a lot from being a small ball 4, he gets more of an advantage than Jokic does from the small ball era.

And I remember Shaq getting defended a lot by smaller guys with lower centers of gravity, like Malik Rose. Gobert, KAT, Reid are no smaller than what he went up against.

Yes, they are small compared to Shaq. Next question

Is there anyone not small compared to Shaq? I don’t get it, is that your argument? Actually, I’m not even sure what your point is, feel like you’re trying to have a “gotcha” moment, and it’s failing badly.

I forget why Shaq is even being mentioned here tbh, the debate is between Jokic and KD, and KD wishes he would play as well as Jokic did going up against elite defense without a reliable 2nd option. Whenever we saw KD try that, he came up way shorter than Jokic did.

[therealbig3]

Also, KAT isn’t soft, the dude is an excellent man to man post defender.

It’s like we’re going to ignore actual facts and pretend like Gobert, KAT, and Reid isn’t one of the biggest, most versatile, and overall toughest defensive front lines of all time.

I mean, you’re honestly making me respect Jokic’s performance even more here, especially given how little he got from his 2nd option.

[migya]

Shaq's rs peak saw him getting cooked in 3 out of 4 series opposing bigs and saw Lakers fall from one of the best rs teams ever to one of the weakest champions ever because of thier rim defense and overall defense plummeting.

Shaq gets torched by the wolves

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

He couldn't even destroy the 2000 Pacers or 2000 Portland. How is he destroying a wolves team with much better paint-protection, longer and stronger perimeter dudes and a center who is a much better stretch big?

Both Pacers and Blazers had very good and big defensive frontlines, offensive too. Size against Shaq, and clearly Jokic, is important, and Shaq feasted on both those teams. It wasn't fmvps for nothing.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Shaq's rs peak saw him getting cooked in 3 out of 4 series opposing bigs and saw Lakers fall from one of the best rs teams ever to one of the weakest champions ever because of thier rim defense and overall defense plummeting.

Shaq gets torched by the wolves

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

He couldn't even destroy the 2000 Pacers or 2000 Portland. How is he destroying a wolves team with much better paint-protection, longer and stronger perimeter dudes and a center who is a much better stretch big?

Shaq averaged 38 ppg against the 2000 Pacers, and did this when his 2nd option shot even arguably worse than Murray did this series.

[tone wone]

What in God's name does Shaq have to do with this thread?

[OhayoKD]

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

He couldn't even destroy the 2000 Pacers or 2000 Portland. How is he destroying a wolves team with much better paint-protection, longer and stronger perimeter dudes and a center who is a much better stretch big?

Shaq averaged 38 ppg against the 2000 Pacers, and did this when his 2nd option shot even arguably worse than Murray did this series.

My comment did not imply only offense let alone only scoring.

[LukaTheGOAT]

He couldn't even destroy the 2000 Pacers or 2000 Portland. How is he destroying a wolves team with much better paint-protection, longer and stronger perimeter dudes and a center who is a much better stretch big?

Shaq averaged 38 ppg against the 2000 Pacers, and did this when his 2nd option shot even arguably worse than Murray did this series.

My comment did not imply only offense let alone only scoring.

So you look at that series and come away feeling that Shaq was anything but utterly dominant against the 2000 Pacers? That's really how you feel?

[OhayoKD]

Shaq averaged 38 ppg against the 2000 Pacers, and did this when his 2nd option shot even arguably worse than Murray did this series.

My comment did not imply only offense let alone only scoring.

So you look at that series and come away feeling that Shaq was anything but utterly dominant against the 2000 Pacers? That's really how you feel?

at the level of a goat lvl guy or even a dude a tier down(duncan, mj, ect), no. And the pacers in a direct matchup get waxed by the wolves so

[O_6]

KD is so weird to me.

I’d consider him the “purest” scorer of the 3. I remember when there was a site called like NBAShotCharts or something along those lines that stopped being active a year or two ago. KD was “green” literally in every spot of the floor for like a 5+ year span maybe starting his last year or two at OKC or first at GS. His “at the rim” FG% is amazing, his corner 3 is amazing, absurd middy, his above the break 3 is great. In an era where scoring is easier due to spacing, I don’t think anyone else was “green/good” on every single spot of the floor like him.

And yet despite being “good” everywhere he very rarely pressed the issue. Him being an “in the flow” player rather than a “take control” player had both its plusses and minuses. He was typically a plus but when forced into a role where he needed to “take over”, he typically struggled.

I want to do a study on it but I feel like when KD takes a “lot of shots”, his efficiency (his calling card) takes a big dip because he can’t pick and choose his spots.

Playoffs
KD: 20.8 FGA in 170 games (47.7 FG%)
LJ: 20.5 FGA in 287 games (49.7 FG%)

Playoffs (21+ FGA games at .400 or lower FG%)
KD: 27/87 below .400 (31.0%)
LJ: 26/136 below .400 (19.1%)

Now that’s already a massive advantage for LeBron in terms of limiting high volume bad shooting games in the playoffs, but in reality the edge is bigger than that because LeBron played many more games in the tougher pre-‘10 defensive environment.

There’s always just been something missing with KD offensively. He’s just comfortable dominating as a scorer on his terms, and in those situations it is freaking scary. But when he’s forced to do more than he wants, he typically fails. I know he had that Game 5 against the Champ Bucks which might be the best game I’ve seen, but that’s what he “should’ve been” and “could’ve been” instead of what he has been.

He’s 3rd on this comp despite having the most versatile scoring skill set I’ve probably ever seen in terms of being a threat everywhere

[therealbig3]

The issue with KD is what people are saying the issue is with Jokic in terms of GOAT offensive players...he's really not a great ball handler when he's forced to do it with volume and is the primary playmaker for his team. When he plays off another high volume ball handler that can kind of just set him up, he looks like an unstoppable scoring threat (Westbrook, Curry). He's just too tall and lanky with too loose and high of a dribble and he becomes real turnover prone. Unlike Jokic, he doesn't have anywhere near the same level vision and passing ability, and he IS a bit of a ball hog who tends to go ISO-crazy at times. All of this leads to an overall offensive efficiency that makes the shooting numbers look less impressive in general.

And with regards to the shooting numbers, outside of his GS run, it generally took quite a dip in the playoffs, and I think the main thing being 1. better defenses in general, 2. he's a skinny guy who can be bothered by physical defense, 3. relatively poor ball handling as mentioned earlier, 4. not really that high IQ of an offensive player who can consistently beat the double team, he actually struggles with it a lot, 5. his off ball game actually isn't close to someone like Curry who really changes the defense with his constant movement and opens up opportunities for teammates, KD does a lot of standing around on the perimeter and when he does move it's purely for his own shot and he does a lot of catching and waiting and then shooting instead of catching and going and making an immediate move against a scrambling defense. I think his shooting numbers take a dip because his shot selection isn't the best, especially when he's the main option and the defense can collapse on him, and he can't really punish them for doubling him, because he likes to shoot and he also doesn't see the best options like the real offensive geniuses do. That leads to a lot of higher degree of difficulty shots and turnovers.

Jokic OTOH is a fantastic 1 on 1 post player who can destroy a defense with his passing and is also a really good outside shooter. As a scorer, he's insanely efficient, and he couples that with great vision and passing, and it helps him leverage his scoring into higher percentage shots.

[LukaTheGOAT]

KD is so weird to me.

I’d consider him the “purest” scorer of the 3. I remember when there was a site called like NBAShotCharts or something along those lines that stopped being active a year or two ago. KD was “green” literally in every spot of the floor for like a 5+ year span maybe starting his last year or two at OKC or first at GS. His “at the rim” FG% is amazing, his corner 3 is amazing, absurd middy, his above the break 3 is great. In an era where scoring is easier due to spacing, I don’t think anyone else was “green/good” on every single spot of the floor like him.

And yet despite being “good” everywhere he very rarely pressed the issue. Him being an “in the flow” player rather than a “take control” player had both its plusses and minuses. He was typically a plus but when forced into a role where he needed to “take over”, he typically struggled.

1 45+ plus game in his 170 game playoff career. Career high of “only” 55 which is a lot but everyone always wonders why he doesn’t have a 60+ performance or 3 to his name.

I want to do a study on it but I feel like when KD takes a “lot of shots”, his efficiency (his calling card) takes a big dip because he can’t pick and choose his spots.

Playoffs
KD: 20.8 FGA in 170 games (47.7 FG%)
LJ: 20.5 FGA in 287 games (49.7 FG%)

Playoffs (21+ FGA games at .400 or lower FG%)
KD: 27/87 below .400 (31.0%)
LJ: 26/136 below .400 (19.1%)

Now that’s already a massive advantage for LeBron in terms of limiting high volume bad shooting games in the playoffs, but in reality the edge is bigger than that because LeBron played many more games in the tougher pre-‘10 defensive environment.

There’s always just been something missing with KD offensively. He’s just comfortable dominating as a scorer on his terms, and in those situations it is freaking scary. But when he’s forced to do more than he wants, he typically fails. I know he had that Game 5 against the Champ Bucks which might be the best game I’ve seen, but that’s what he “should’ve been” and “could’ve been” instead of what he has been.

He’s 3rd on this comp despite having the most versatile scoring skill set I’ve probably ever seen in terms of being a threat everywhere

Yeah, there may not be a better player ever at getting you 25-30 ppg on +10 rTS% on a random Wednseday night during February.

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[LukaTheGOAT]

My comment did not imply only offense let alone only scoring.

So you look at that series and come away feeling that Shaq was anything but utterly dominant against the 2000 Pacers? That's really how you feel?

at the level of a goat lvl guy or even a dude a tier down(duncan, mj, ect), no. And the pacers in a direct matchup get waxed by the wolves so

I don't care about how they compare to the Wolves. You said that Shaq did not destroy the 2000 pacers. You then rebutted that you were not talking only scoring, in my original response.

Shaq against the Pacers averaged 38 ppg (rTS% of +6.7%).

He literally jam packed with the paint that serious, because he took up so much room in the lane. Then you add on the additional 15.5 FTA per game, and he make sure to put the opposing team in foul trouble.

Based on the older version AuPM, Shaq was at +10.3 respectively. For comparison, Duncan never hit that AuPM number during any series of his 03 PS series.

By non-luck adjusted PIPM, Shaq was at +11.6, which was higher than any Duncan Finals of his career. What exactly was Shaq lacking at, because not only did he live up to the hype offensively, his defense was arguably above the RS baseline he set when he finished 2nd in DPOY voting.

[rebirthoftheM]

#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Jokic

Lebron over KD due to his more consistent scoring output & ability to 'turn it' up scoring wise in a way KD has not shown.

KD over Jokic because volume matters & KD has him clearly beat in that regard and KD is sufficiently efficient which negates Jokic's efficiency advantage.

[BroKamina]

But they wouldn’t. Shaq is a flat out better defender than Jokic

Shaq's rs peak saw him getting cooked in 3 out of 4 series opposing bigs and saw Lakers fall from one of the best rs teams ever to one of the weakest champions ever because of thier rim defense and overall defense plummeting.

Shaq gets torched by the wolves

Yall are delusional. Peak Shaq destroys Wolves. See Shaq vs 6ers series to see what would happen to the wolves. Kat is soft, he stands 0 chance

They haven’t seen the photo of KAT try to go at Cousins

I can’t imagine Shaq going against 2 7 footers, one who can’t death with girth, another whose nickname is the opposite of dog, and a 6ft9 backup

It’s not like teams literally had to sign much bigger and girthier 7 footers to foul out haha