The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[PistolPeteJR]

It gets even better when you add efficiency numbers. The trolls and MJ/Kobe stans suddenly want to see those when averages show their guy to be on the losing side of a comparison. However, that's a really bad thing to want when comparing to Lebron. Let's see. Lebron last year had 63% TS. Damn. Jordan's last year it was 49% TS. Ouch. Kobe's last year it was 47% TS. Bigger ouch. The media, per usual, is dead in the water on this one.

I agree to a good extent, except you can't compare raw TS% between the three. Rather, compare to league average in those years given the difference in the game.

Sure, but...

2003 Jordan: -2.8% rTS
2016 Kobe: -7.2% rTS
2024 Lebron: +5 rTS

It clarifies things rather quickly.

Oh I wasn't saying LeBron wouldn't still be head and shoulders above them. I know he is.
Just offering some advice as to comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

[tsherkin]

Oh I wasn't saying LeBron wouldn't still be head and shoulders above them. I know he is.
Just offering some advice as to comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

Yeah, I wasn't clapping back, just providing the relevant numbers

[PistolPeteJR]

Oh I wasn't saying LeBron wouldn't still be head and shoulders above them. I know he is.
Just offering some advice as to comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

Yeah, I wasn't clapping back, just providing the relevant numbers

Nah didn't think you were lol.

[tsherkin]

Oh I wasn't saying LeBron wouldn't still be head and shoulders above them. I know he is.
Just offering some advice as to comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

Yeah, I wasn't clapping back, just providing the relevant numbers

Nah didn't think you were lol.

Right on.

Your point, as it happens, is spot on. Very different league environments, no question, so it's best to look at them relative to their own time due to the differences, no doubt.

[Ian Scuffling]

It gets even better when you add efficiency numbers. The trolls and MJ/Kobe stans suddenly want to see those when averages show their guy to be on the losing side of a comparison. However, that's a really bad thing to want when comparing to Lebron. Let's see. Lebron last year had 63% TS. Damn. Jordan's last year it was 49% TS. Ouch. Kobe's last year it was 47% TS. Bigger ouch. The media, per usual, is dead in the water on this one.

I agree to a good extent, except you can't compare raw TS% between the three. Rather, compare to league average in those years given the difference in the game.

Great point, but it was my presumption that a stat like TS% wouldn't be as affected in terms of pace, style, etc... as other stats. Maybe, I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time

[tsherkin]

Great point, but it was my presumption that a stat like TS% wouldn't be as affected in terms of pace, style, etc... as other stats. Maybe, I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time

League average TS in 2003 was 51.9%. It was 54.1% in Kobe's last season in 2016, and it was 58.0% this year.

It's a pretty large difference over the past 20 years or so. It's like the averaging FG% from 0-3 feet being about 10% higher from 04 to now.

[PistolPeteJR]

It gets even better when you add efficiency numbers. The trolls and MJ/Kobe stans suddenly want to see those when averages show their guy to be on the losing side of a comparison. However, that's a really bad thing to want when comparing to Lebron. Let's see. Lebron last year had 63% TS. Damn. Jordan's last year it was 49% TS. Ouch. Kobe's last year it was 47% TS. Bigger ouch. The media, per usual, is dead in the water on this one.

I agree to a good extent, except you can't compare raw TS% between the three. Rather, compare to league average in those years given the difference in the game.

Great point, but it was my presumption that a stat like TS% wouldn't be as affected in terms of pace, style, etc... as other stats. Maybe, I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time

Always something to learn for us all!

[Djoker]

Great point, but it was my presumption that a stat like TS% wouldn't be as affected in terms of pace, style, etc... as other stats. Maybe, I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time

League average TS in 2003 was 51.9%. It was 54.1% in Kobe's last season in 2016, and it was 58.0% this year.

It's a pretty large difference over the past 20 years or so. It's like the averaging FG% from 0-3 feet being about 10% higher from 04 to now.

Yep and it's not even just the average TS%. Pace is also higher so guys today put up more shots per minute on the floor. As crazy as it is to fathom. both MJ and Kobe take even more shots in today's game with equal usage. Jordan in particular was just a monster at getting to the cup and on the break as well so he arguably jumps even more relative to league average. Kobe who relied mostly on midrange probably only improves modestly.

[tsherkin]

Yep and it's not even just the average TS%. Pace is also higher so guys today put up more shots per minute on the floor. As crazy as it is to fathom. both MJ and Kobe take even more shots in today's game with equal usage.

Yes, part of why the efficiency is up is due to the pace being 91.0 in 2003 and 98.5 now. Some of it is the move from .182 3PAr to .395. Some of it is improved PnR and spread offenses and stuff, some of it is deeper talent in the league, etc, etc. For people who wanna jump in and mope about fouls, though, .302 FTr in 2003, .244 in 2024.

We are, I am happy to say, also seeing an uptick in offensive rebounding over recent years. 22.5% in 2020. It's more like it was 10 years ago, with a little more selective crashing. Which is nice.

[PistolPeteJR]

Yep and it's not even just the average TS%. Pace is also higher so guys today put up more shots per minute on the floor. As crazy as it is to fathom. both MJ and Kobe take even more shots in today's game with equal usage.

Yes, part of why the efficiency is up is due to the pace being 91.0 in 2003 and 98.5 now. Some of it is the move from .182 3PAr to .395. Some of it is improved PnR and spread offenses and stuff, some of it is deeper talent in the league, etc, etc. For people who wanna jump in and mope about fouls, though, .302 FTr in 2003, .244 in 2024.

We are, I am happy to say, also seeing an uptick in offensive rebounding over recent years. 22.5% in 2020. It's more like it was 10 years ago, with a little more selective crashing. Which is nice.

I wonder if there are charts to see where those rebounds are coming though; I'd wager there are more long rebounds now than a decade ago.

[EmpireFalls]

Yep and it's not even just the average TS%. Pace is also higher so guys today put up more shots per minute on the floor. As crazy as it is to fathom. both MJ and Kobe take even more shots in today's game with equal usage.

Yes, part of why the efficiency is up is due to the pace being 91.0 in 2003 and 98.5 now. Some of it is the move from .182 3PAr to .395. Some of it is improved PnR and spread offenses and stuff, some of it is deeper talent in the league, etc, etc. For people who wanna jump in and mope about fouls, though, .302 FTr in 2003, .244 in 2024.

We are, I am happy to say, also seeing an uptick in offensive rebounding over recent years. 22.5% in 2020. It's more like it was 10 years ago, with a little more selective crashing. Which is nice.

I’m almost at the point where comparing raw stats from more than 10 years apart isn’t something I’m even close to remotely interested in. Spacing and all the pace/strategy changes has basically warped basketball into a different sport.

Watched some young LeBron and Jordan highlights the other night, they’d probably get to the rim 50 times a game if they had 2020s spacing and that’s not even an exaggeration.

[tsherkin]

I wonder if there are charts to see where those rebounds are coming though; I'd wager there are more long rebounds now than a decade ago.

Oh there are absolutely more long rebounds with 3PAr rising. But teams were allergic to offensive rebounding for a while to maintain transition defense. They're picking their spots a little more now.

I’m almost at the point where comparing raw stats from more than 10 years apart isn’t something I’m even close to remotely interested in. Spacing and all the pace/strategy changes has basically warped basketball into a different sport.

Well, "different sport" is a little melodramatic and hyperbolic, but the game does change over time. Look at 90s ball and then watch BAA/50s NBA ball. Then look at the 60s, the 70s. Then look at the 80s. Then look at like 98-2004. 2005-2014. 2015 and on. Right? Large paradigm shifts in the way the game is played, incrementally moving each year, especially around great players/teams.

Watched some young LeBron and Jordan highlights the other night, they’d probably get to the rim 50 times a game if they had 2020s spacing and that’s not even an exaggeration.

Yes, that's an exaggeration. It's some BS. But they would also have different specific numbers in this era compared to then, for sure. Their relative impact would be different, but their absolute numbers would surely change.

[Mazter]

Watched some young LeBron and Jordan highlights the other night, they’d probably get to the rim 50 times a game if they had 2020s spacing and that’s not even an exaggeration.

Given that the Pacers lead the league with just 30 shots at the rim...you know what, never mind, your totally right!!!!

[thebigbird]

Third team for LeBron is an absolute joke. Just lol at Kawhi and KD making second team over him.

[EmpireFalls]

Watched some young LeBron and Jordan highlights the other night, they’d probably get to the rim 50 times a game if they had 2020s spacing and that’s not even an exaggeration.

Given that the Pacers lead the league with just 30 shots at the rim...you know what, never mind, your totally right!!!!

That doesn’t mean rim attempts, it means getting by a defender and either creating a kick out opportunity or just dumping it to the big. My point is, if SGA and Luka can do it to the tune of such gaudy statlines, I’m pretty sure MJ and Bron can do it a lot, lot better.

Theoretically Luka had a better season than LBJ ever has going by offensive stats. Does anyone actually believe that?

[tsherkin]

Third team for LeBron is an absolute joke. Just lol at Kawhi and KD making second team over him.

Yeah, that was a little surprising.

[tsherkin]

Watched some young LeBron and Jordan highlights the other night, they’d probably get to the rim 50 times a game if they had 2020s spacing and that’s not even an exaggeration.

Given that the Pacers lead the league with just 30 shots at the rim...you know what, never mind, your totally right!!!!

That doesn’t mean rim attempts, it means getting by a defender and either creating a kick out opportunity or just dumping it to the big. My point is, if SGA and Luka can do it to the tune of such gaudy statlines, I’m pretty sure MJ and Bron can do it a lot, lot better.

Theoretically Luka had a better season than LBJ ever has going by offensive stats. Does anyone actually believe that?

I think what he's saying is that if you think Jordan and Lebron could do 167% of what the best team in the league is generating by themselves in terms of just attempts at the rim, you're a little off-base.

They'd thrive, no doubt, but let's not get crazy.

[thebigbird]

Third team for LeBron is an absolute joke. Just lol at Kawhi and KD making second team over him.

Yeah, that was a little surprising.

I expected it, but Kawhi over LeBron especially is nasty business. It just can’t be supported with statistical evidence. Some will try to point to team record, but we’re talking a difference of 4 wins. LeBron was 3-0 head to head against Kawhi and played more games. SGA and Doncic both made first team last year while missing the playoffs.


Like, how is LeBron the one left off the second team?

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[rk2023]

Despite all the “media darling” gimmicks and what not, it’s funny how KD and Kawhi’s PR teams are that much better than that of Bron and Curry… both of the latter were snubbed of second team, with a clear case by most statistical measures.

[TroubleS0me]

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