Luka vs Kobe (peak only)

[spree8]

Well, since you decided to drag my name into it, I want to congratulate you for consistently living up to every characterisation McBubbles imputed onto you.

Denigrate Kobe’s less talented teammates for not improving more — okay, what exactly was Kobe working on after the 2010 championship? The Heatles take all this grief, but the Lakers were defending champions who got blown off the court while Kobe had his worst series since 2004.

And then post-Achilles? Oof, not sure the last time I saw a superstar decline that badly. Guys like Durant and Wilkins put in all this work to recover back to their all-NBA form. Even “roleplayers” like Wes Matthews and Rudy Gay put in the work to continue being productive pieces for years to come. But Kobe? Content to be the franchise’s tank commander, because for all that “work”, he never really cared to change his style of play. Could have worked on being a better shooter. Could have worked on being a better off-ball defender. Could have worked on adapting to different roles the way so many other players have, stars and specialists alike. Did none of that while continue to feed a self-created personality cult that has people like you constantly regurgitating that no one “worked” harder. Because you just know Kobe so well, right.

What characterizations were those exactly? Personal attacks from you too That’s so soft and emotional. You’re going after him for not bouncing back from his achilles injury now? You’re a doctor or surgeon? Kobe was what? 36 years old… a lot older than KD and 4 years older than Dominique which is significant past 30 years old in this game.

And I guess I gotta spell it out for you too huh? I’m talking about knowing the players in the context of their work ethic. We know Kobe works hard… I don’t have to know him personally. We know that players that regress, are too scared of getting the ball, or just suck in the NBA don’t put in the work necessary to be better. But you’re assuming they’re working oh so hard behind closed doors despite their performances showing otherwise. You’re a participation award kinda guy it seems.

I see two paragraphs but I don't see any explanation for:

Speaking of, national media finally caught on in 2013, ripping him for never bothering for more than a couple of specific games or matchups — eventually forcing D’Antoni to just regularly give Kobe the toughest assignment in the hope that would at least make him care enough to try. Where was that dauntless work ethic? You look at a guy like Manu — ever catch him saying he could not motivate himself to guard roleplayers?

And then post-Achilles? Oof, not sure the last time I saw a superstar decline that badly. Guys like Durant and Wilkins put in all this work to recover back to their all-NBA form. Even “roleplayers” like Wes Matthews and Rudy Gay put in the work to continue being productive pieces for years to come. But Kobe? Content to be the franchise’s tank commander, because for all that “work”, he never really cared to change his style of play. Could have worked on being a better shooter. Could have worked on being a better off-ball defender. Could have worked on adapting to different roles the way so many other players have, stars and specialists alike. Did none of that while continue to feed a self-created personality cult that has people like you constantly regurgitating that no one “worked” harder. Because you just know Kobe so well, right.

Why you yapping about personal attacks instead of discussing Kobe's work ethic. Don't you have that mamba in you?

TLDR, but a post from 6 months ago?

[OhayoKD]

Anyone rethinking their votes?

Based on what?

Luka having the best regular season and potentially the best playoff run of his career?

[OhayoKD]

What characterizations were those exactly? Personal attacks from you too That’s so soft and emotional. You’re going after him for not bouncing back from his achilles injury now? You’re a doctor or surgeon? Kobe was what? 36 years old… a lot older than KD and 4 years older than Dominique which is significant past 30 years old in this game.

And I guess I gotta spell it out for you too huh? I’m talking about knowing the players in the context of their work ethic. We know Kobe works hard… I don’t have to know him personally. We know that players that regress, are too scared of getting the ball, or just suck in the NBA don’t put in the work necessary to be better. But you’re assuming they’re working oh so hard behind closed doors despite their performances showing otherwise. You’re a participation award kinda guy it seems.

I see two paragraphs but I don't see any explanation for:

Speaking of, national media finally caught on in 2013, ripping him for never bothering for more than a couple of specific games or matchups — eventually forcing D’Antoni to just regularly give Kobe the toughest assignment in the hope that would at least make him care enough to try. Where was that dauntless work ethic? You look at a guy like Manu — ever catch him saying he could not motivate himself to guard roleplayers?

And then post-Achilles? Oof, not sure the last time I saw a superstar decline that badly. Guys like Durant and Wilkins put in all this work to recover back to their all-NBA form. Even “roleplayers” like Wes Matthews and Rudy Gay put in the work to continue being productive pieces for years to come. But Kobe? Content to be the franchise’s tank commander, because for all that “work”, he never really cared to change his style of play. Could have worked on being a better shooter. Could have worked on being a better off-ball defender. Could have worked on adapting to different roles the way so many other players have, stars and specialists alike. Did none of that while continue to feed a self-created personality cult that has people like you constantly regurgitating that no one “worked” harder. Because you just know Kobe so well, right.

Why you yapping about personal attacks instead of discussing Kobe's work ethic. Don't you have that mamba in you?

TLDR, but a post from 6 months ago?

Thought your post was after the bump tbh

[tsherkin]

Anyone rethinking their votes?

Based on what?

Luka having the best regular season and potentially the best playoff run of his career?

We're basically talking about the Minny series alone here, so I don't think that should really reshape much.

[70sFan]

Based on what?

Luka having the best regular season and potentially the best playoff run of his career?

We're basically talking about the Minny series alone here, so I don't think that should really reshape much.

Yeah, people should wait until the end of the playoffs. Luka's series against Minny was incredible, it's not like Kobe lacks singular spectacular series performances.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

[tsherkin]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

That seems inaccurate. This team looks pretty similar in talent level to the 08-10 squads, particularly given the way they've actually been playing during the postseason.

EDIT: Kobe, for example, did not have this kind of scoring support from anyone post-Shaq. Kyrie was 14th in the league at 25.6 ppg; Pau topped out at 19th and 20th... in 06 and 2015, and didn't even manage 19+ ppg with Kobe (albeit 18.8, 18.9, etc). And that doesn't really speak to Gafford and Lively as a rotation at the 5, with shooters spacing and all of that stuff. It really doesn't seem legit to downplay the quality of the Mavs relative to Kobe's rosters.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

That seems inaccurate. This team looks pretty similar in talent level to the 08-10 squads, particularly given the way they've actually been playing during the postseason.

EDIT: Kobe, for example, did not have this kind of scoring support from anyone post-Shaq. Kyrie was 14th in the league at 25.6 ppg; Pau topped out at 19th and 20th... in 06 and 2015, and didn't even manage 19+ ppg with Kobe (albeit 18.8, 18.9, etc). And that doesn't really speak to Gafford and Lively as a rotation at the 5, with shooters spacing and all of that stuff. It really doesn't seem legit to downplay the quality of the Mavs relative to Kobe's rosters.

Yeh hard disagree.

Pau is better than Kyrie to start with. Pau is a franchise big who proved he could lead a 50 win team in a tough Western conference (for that time). Kyrie has shown nothing like that. He's a good Robin for a top 5 player, with the right pieces, but he's a clear cut below Pau, regardless of 'who scores better'.

Then who are the Mavs other guys? PJ, Gafford/Lively and Derrick Jones Jnr. Come on. These are middle of the road guys mostly. Lively might become more, and is playing better than that, but these other guys were not thought of highly prior to this playoffs. They're being put in a position to succeed, but alot of that is because of Luka.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

[OhayoKD]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

That seems inaccurate. This team looks pretty similar in talent level to the 08-10 squads, particularly given the way they've actually been playing during the postseason.

EDIT: Kobe, for example, did not have this kind of scoring support from anyone post-Shaq. Kyrie was 14th in the league at 25.6 ppg; Pau topped out at 19th and 20th... in 06 and 2015, and didn't even manage 19+ ppg with Kobe (albeit 18.8, 18.9, etc). And that doesn't really speak to Gafford and Lively as a rotation at the 5, with shooters spacing and all of that stuff. It really doesn't seem legit to downplay the quality of the Mavs relative to Kobe's rosters.

How much of that better scoring support is Luka being one of the best creators/playmakers ever? What constitutes support in terms of scoring is also obviously different now given the state of the league.

As is, no iteration of the Mavericks has yet to even approach being average when Luka misses games. Not saying that wouldn't possibly be different with the post-trade mavs granted an extended sample, but I wouldn't just assume Luka's team is great because his teammates are scoring more paired with a much better playmaker than Kobe in a higher scoring league.

And I certainly wouldn't consider kyrie and equal to pau gasol who, unlike kyrie, has a track record of high impact as the lead on decent teams, even if kyrie scored more points.

TBH, though that may not line up 1:1 with in-era impact, as a talent, I see Luka as an MJ-level guy, not a kobe-level one. Offensively, I'd say he tops either. If he could anchor defenses he'd be in the running for best player ever.

[OhayoKD]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

That seems inaccurate. This team looks pretty similar in talent level to the 08-10 squads, particularly given the way they've actually been playing during the postseason.

EDIT: Kobe, for example, did not have this kind of scoring support from anyone post-Shaq. Kyrie was 14th in the league at 25.6 ppg; Pau topped out at 19th and 20th... in 06 and 2015, and didn't even manage 19+ ppg with Kobe (albeit 18.8, 18.9, etc). And that doesn't really speak to Gafford and Lively as a rotation at the 5, with shooters spacing and all of that stuff. It really doesn't seem legit to downplay the quality of the Mavs relative to Kobe's rosters.

Yeh hard disagree.

Pau is better than Kyrie to start with. Pau is a franchise big who proved he could lead a 50 win team in a tough Western conference (for that time). Kyrie has shown nothing like that. He's a good Robin for a top 5 player, with the right pieces, but he's a clear cut below Pau, regardless of 'who scores better'.

Then who are the Mavs other guys? PJ, Gafford/Lively and Derrick Jones Jnr. Come on. These are middle of the road guys mostly. Lively might become more, and is playing better than that, but these other guys were not thought of highly prior to this playoffs. They're being put in a position to succeed, but alot of that is because of Luka.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

I don't really agree with most of your Kobe criticism, but hard for me to see Luka as not clearly better.

Don't overreact to a series and all but he just made a superchanged version of the bad boy pistons dance for his amusement. I don't think Kobe has anything comparable(even though in terms of straight performance 2001 playoffs is up there)

[One_and_Done]

What has the market thought of guys like PJ, Jones and Gafford before this season? Not much. Then contrast that to Kobe's support cast.

Odom, Artest/Ariza, Bynum; these were guys much valued. Odom had been the 2nd best player on a playoff team before he got to LA. If he stays as Wade's sidekick he probably makes a bunch of all-star teams out East. Artest was literally the best or 2nd best guy on a 60 win team, and was an all-nba talent. Ariza was a tried and tested 3&D wing around the league, much valued. Bynum got a max contract based on what he showed in LA.

Even Fisher got a full MLE contract; that's more than anyone gave Jones, and if Gafford or PJ had full MLE value they wouldn't have been traded for the low price they were.

[OhayoKD]

What has the market thought of guys like PJ, Jones and Gafford before this season? Not much. Then contrast that to Kobe's support cast.

Odom, Artest/Ariza, Bynum; these were guys much valued. Odom had been the 2nd best player on a playoff team before he got to LA. If he stays as Wade's sidekick he probably makes a bunch of all-star teams out East. Artest was literally the best or 2nd best guy on a 60 win team, and was an all-nba talent. Ariza was a tried and tested 3&D wing around the league, much valued. Bynum got a max contract based on what he showed in LA.

Even Fisher got a full MLE contract; that's more than anyone gave Jones, and if Gafford or PJ had full MLE value they wouldn't have been traded for the low price they were.

I think they are good defenders and Luka definitely needs people to cover him defensively. Their offense is very definitely inflated by Luka

[tone wone]

.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

Ariza wasn't highly regarded while in LA. He played his way into being a valuable 3 n D wing but he was hurt and not in the rotation in 2008; didn't became a starter until the last month of the regular season in 2009 and obviously wasn't on the team in 2010.

The sudden rise of Dallas after the mid season trades has made it a bit difficult to parse the quality of this roster. I suspect that if this was the team they had in training camp you'd regard the supporting cast more favorably. Not 2008-2010 Lakers level of support but more than "Luka-Kyrie and a bunch a dudes"

[One_and_Done]

.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

Ariza wasn't highly regarded while in LA. He played his way into being a valuable 3 n D wing but he was hurt and not in the rotation in 2008; didn't became a starter until the last month of the regular season in 2009 and obviously wasn't on the team in 2010.

The sudden rise of Dallas after the mid season trades has made it a bit difficult to parse the quality of this roster. I suspect that if this was the team they had in training camp you'd regard the supporting cast more favorably. Not 2008-2010 Lakers level of support but more than "Luka-Kyrie and a bunch a dudes"

Ariza got votes for DPOY and 6th man on the Lakers. He then went on to get DPOY votes in 4 other years. The idea he wasn't a great player by 09 & 10 is fanciful. He had a long and successful career as an elite 3&D guy, regardless of whether ppl knew he was good before LA.

If Luka had this team in training camp it would be seen even more so as "Luka/Kyrie and a bunch of guys", because nobody rated any of their other starters highly last preseason.

[OhayoKD]

.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

Ariza wasn't highly regarded while in LA. He played his way into being a valuable 3 n D wing but he was hurt and not in the rotation in 2008; didn't became a starter until the last month of the regular season in 2009 and obviously wasn't on the team in 2010.

The sudden rise of Dallas after the mid season trades has made it a bit difficult to parse the quality of this roster. I suspect that if this was the team they had in training camp you'd regard the supporting cast more favorably. Not 2008-2010 Lakers level of support but more than "Luka-Kyrie and a bunch a dudes"

Ariza got votes for DPOY and 6th man on the Lakers. He then went on to get DPOY votes in 4 other years. The idea he wasn't a great player by 09 & 10 is fanciful. He had a long and successful career as an elite 3&D guy, regardless of whether ppl knew he was good before LA.

If Luka had this team in training camp it would be seen even more so as "Luka/Kyrie and a bunch of guys", because nobody rated any of their other starters highly last preseason.

Young players do tend to get better. Luka has good defenders around him and a solid offensive #2.

[rk2023]

Don't think Luka has peaked yet.

But I'd say it's a wash for now.

I do think Kobe's 2008 playoff run is extremely underrated.

How do you think Chris Paull did in the 2008 playoffs? Just to compare.

And why do you think Kobe had such a weak offensive series against SA compared to CP3, and against Boston, compared to LeBron? Two guys who had worse casts around them no less.

How did Kobe have such a comparatively weak series when he had 6 more points on 3 points higher TS%?

[rebirthoftheM]

Kobe has never carried a team of this level to the finals. What happens next will just be gravy.

That seems inaccurate. This team looks pretty similar in talent level to the 08-10 squads, particularly given the way they've actually been playing during the postseason.

EDIT: Kobe, for example, did not have this kind of scoring support from anyone post-Shaq. Kyrie was 14th in the league at 25.6 ppg; Pau topped out at 19th and 20th... in 06 and 2015, and didn't even manage 19+ ppg with Kobe (albeit 18.8, 18.9, etc). And that doesn't really speak to Gafford and Lively as a rotation at the 5, with shooters spacing and all of that stuff. It really doesn't seem legit to downplay the quality of the Mavs relative to Kobe's rosters.

Yeh hard disagree.

Pau is better than Kyrie to start with. Pau is a franchise big who proved he could lead a 50 win team in a tough Western conference (for that time). Kyrie has shown nothing like that. He's a good Robin for a top 5 player, with the right pieces, but he's a clear cut below Pau, regardless of 'who scores better'.

Then who are the Mavs other guys? PJ, Gafford/Lively and Derrick Jones Jnr. Come on. These are middle of the road guys mostly. Lively might become more, and is playing better than that, but these other guys were not thought of highly prior to this playoffs. They're being put in a position to succeed, but alot of that is because of Luka.

Meanwhile Kobe's other guys included a highly regarded 3&D guy in Ariza, who then became an all-nba small forward playing a lesser role on a stacked team. Odom was an all-star calibre guy even if he never made a team. Bynum was a fantastic big, who looked like an all-star in the making, he got a max from Philly for a reason. The Lakers also had good role players beyond that, like Fisher, Radmanovic, etc. Even end of the bench guys like Farmer and Walton were solid.

Dallas is basically playing 7 guys most of the time. They do not have the depth or talent of those Lakers teams. They're also playing in a far stronger league. Those Lakers teams would have been out in the 2nd round at best in today's Western Conference

Gasol pre-Kobe between 04-07 was indeed better than Kyrie pre-Lebron but its not like Pau Gasol was special. His relative team success did not have as much to do with him as you think. 04-06 Memphis won off their stellar defense. which Gasol had little to do with given he was a net negative defender during these years. A 21-22 PER franchise player that produced below average offenses and could not win a single playoff game. Then he ups his production in 07 but his defense turns into a total joke, posting a below 1 RAPM and a -1.27 DRAPM as a big!.

That was Gasol pre-Kobe.

Then he gets traded to the Lakers, is relieved of carrying an offense which allows him to focus on other parts of a game. Plays next to a Kobe that makes the offense much easier to him & inspires him both on and off the court to toughen up and play better D. And voila, he starts looking like a bonafide all-star. Yet somehow this is to be held against Kobe? Hilarious

Gasol's ascent in LA rather than being a negative for Kobe should 100% count to this favour. He elevated Gasol in ways he could never play as a #1. Production & impact data demonstrate this. Kobe has a lot to do with the Gasol you saw between 08-10.

With Odom: He thrived as a 3rd option off Kobe and Gasol where he was relieved of #2 carrying burden and mental pressure. Kobe between 05-07 had him as a 2nd option and he was nothing during these years. Skillset and mentality not suited for 2nd option. Yet somehow you will back project his quality impact play between 08-10 to when he was a #2 besides Kobe to denigrate Kobe. It don't work like that. Without Kobe (and Gasol to a secondary level) taking huge burden/pressure from him, he can't impact games the way he did.

Also, Odom credits Kobe with improving his game via inspiration and tip. Why doesn't this count for Kobe?

And then with Bynum: He had one good stretch prior to 2012 and that was the first half of 2007-2008, where Kobe & he worked like a charm leading to a #1 west ranked team. Between 08-10 he didn't produce much and his impact was mostly felt as a bruiser body. Lakers were better with Gasol/Odom on court.

Kobe is that damned player where he is punished for players upping their play next to him without receiving credit. Insanity.

[One_and_Done]

People lose me when they try to discredit Pau's awesomeness, by claiming Kobe 'taught him to be great' or some such.

[rebirthoftheM]

People lose me when they try to discredit Pau's awesomeness, by claiming Kobe 'taught him to be great' or some such.

Gasol himself testifies to its truth. There are so many anecdotes. His RAPM numbers on *both sides of the court* in Los Angeles vs as a #1 in Memphis also testify to this. Massive difference that just can't be handwaved or written off as mere coincidence.

Kobe just made the game easier for Gasol, inspired his growth and allowed him to focus on a more diverse range of areas of the game. As it turns out, Gasol was always suited as a #2 next to an elite perimeter player, not a #1.

But sure, go ahead and convince yourself that a 21-22 PER +2 RAPM, net negative defender on a team who won off the back of their elite defense that he did not contribute much to was this uber elite player whose play somehow undermines Kobe's standing relative to others. Kobe gets little credit for the magical impact transformation in LA.

[One_and_Done]

Guys say nice things about team mates sometimes. Shocking. Meanwhile a large number of Kobe's other team mates, and Kobe's 5 time title coach, had alot of really negative things to say about him and his influence. Rather than picking and choosing which stories we like better from a players hype machine, I'd rather focus on their actual impact.