Are there seasons during Kobe's prime when he wasn't top 5?

[Cavsfansince84]

This is one of those things that its hard to be definitive given that it could go either way by very small margins. Probably 4 of them I would say are definitive top 5 seasons. 5 of the other 7 in the 00-10 period have decent to solid arguments for being top 5 but he was likely in the 4-7 range in them. Kobe is such a divisive player on here though(and anywhere on the internet) that it never really feels rewarding to debate anything to do with him.

[ardee]

His extended prime is 2000-2013. So...

2000: 6th (behind Shaq, Mourning, KG, Malone and Hill)
2001: 2nd (behind Shaq)
2002: 3rd (behind Shaq and Duncan)
2003: 3rd (behind Duncan and KG)
2004: 4th (behind KG, Duncan and Shaq)
2005: 10th or so (behind Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Manu, Shaq, KG, McGrady, LeBron)
2006: 1st
2007: 1st or 2nd (interchangeable with Duncan)
2008: 1st
2009: 2nd (behind LeBron)
2010: 2nd (behind LeBron. Weaker RS but turned it on HEAVY in the Playoffs)
2011: 6th (behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Howard, Paul)
2012: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, KG, Westbrook. Interchangeable with Wade and Dirk)
2013: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, Curry, Duncan. Interchangeable with Harden and Westbrook)

So I have him outside the top 5 in 2000, 2005 and 2011-13, though he is on the cusp in most of those.

[ardee]

Kobe is such a divisive player on here though(and anywhere on the internet) that it never really feels rewarding to debate anything to do with him.

This really isn't true. Kobe gets his due everywhere else. It's only this board where his venomous haters have congregated for over a decade now.

[One_and_Done]

His extended prime is 2000-2013. So...

2000: 6th (behind Shaq, Mourning, KG, Malone and Hill)
2001: 2nd (behind Shaq)
2002: 3rd (behind Shaq and Duncan)
2003: 3rd (behind Duncan and KG)
2004: 4th (behind KG, Duncan and Shaq)
2005: 10th or so (behind Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Manu, Shaq, KG, McGrady, LeBron)
2006: 1st
2007: 1st or 2nd (interchangeable with Duncan)
2008: 1st
2009: 2nd (behind LeBron)
2010: 2nd (behind LeBron. Weaker RS but turned it on HEAVY in the Playoffs)
2011: 6th (behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Howard, Paul)
2012: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, KG, Westbrook. Interchangeable with Wade and Dirk)
2013: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, Curry, Duncan. Interchangeable with Harden and Westbrook)

So I have him outside the top 5 in 2000, 2005 and 2011-13, though he is on the cusp in most of those.

Kobe was never the best player in the league.

[ardee]

His extended prime is 2000-2013. So...

2000: 6th (behind Shaq, Mourning, KG, Malone and Hill)
2001: 2nd (behind Shaq)
2002: 3rd (behind Shaq and Duncan)
2003: 3rd (behind Duncan and KG)
2004: 4th (behind KG, Duncan and Shaq)
2005: 10th or so (behind Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Manu, Shaq, KG, McGrady, LeBron)
2006: 1st
2007: 1st or 2nd (interchangeable with Duncan)
2008: 1st
2009: 2nd (behind LeBron)
2010: 2nd (behind LeBron. Weaker RS but turned it on HEAVY in the Playoffs)
2011: 6th (behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Howard, Paul)
2012: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, KG, Westbrook. Interchangeable with Wade and Dirk)
2013: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, Curry, Duncan. Interchangeable with Harden and Westbrook)

So I have him outside the top 5 in 2000, 2005 and 2011-13, though he is on the cusp in most of those.

Kobe was never the best player in the league.

Yeah based on this thread I have zero desire to engage with you, putting on block.

[One_and_Done]

Coolski. I've never found it necessary to block anyone oddly enough.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kobe is such a divisive player on here though(and anywhere on the internet) that it never really feels rewarding to debate anything to do with him.

This really isn't true. Kobe gets his due everywhere else. It's only this board where his venomous haters have congregated for over a decade now.

I was on the espn message boards for a long time(like 07-14) and it was super contentious there that whole time. Maybe now its less so mainly because he retired like 8 years ago and died 4 years ago so I think its more that a lot of people just don't want to bother debating about him now. This whole idea that criticism of him = hate is a big part of the problem though. People take it way too personally which is why I don't really debate about him that much going back to like 2010.

[OhayoKD]

His extended prime is 2000-2013. So...

2000: 6th (behind Shaq, Mourning, KG, Malone and Hill)
2001: 2nd (behind Shaq)
2002: 3rd (behind Shaq and Duncan)
2003: 3rd (behind Duncan and KG)
2004: 4th (behind KG, Duncan and Shaq)
2005: 10th or so (behind Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Manu, Shaq, KG, McGrady, LeBron)
2006: 1st
2007: 1st or 2nd (interchangeable with Duncan)
2008: 1st
2009: 2nd (behind LeBron)
2010: 2nd (behind LeBron. Weaker RS but turned it on HEAVY in the Playoffs)
2011: 6th (behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Howard, Paul)
2012: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, KG, Westbrook. Interchangeable with Wade and Dirk)
2013: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, Curry, Duncan. Interchangeable with Harden and Westbrook)

So I have him outside the top 5 in 2000, 2005 and 2011-13, though he is on the cusp in most of those.

I'm suprised you have him 2nd in 2001, I'd say that's one of the two years he has a decent bitw argument(2008 is the other though Lebron looms). The rest of this list seems like Wade/Nash/KG erasure. Wade in paticular was better vs Boston in 2010 and I don't really get his argument against Wade in 2006.

[One_and_Done]

There is no argument whatever that Kobe was better than Wade in 06.

[ardee]

His extended prime is 2000-2013. So...

2000: 6th (behind Shaq, Mourning, KG, Malone and Hill)
2001: 2nd (behind Shaq)
2002: 3rd (behind Shaq and Duncan)
2003: 3rd (behind Duncan and KG)
2004: 4th (behind KG, Duncan and Shaq)
2005: 10th or so (behind Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade, Manu, Shaq, KG, McGrady, LeBron)
2006: 1st
2007: 1st or 2nd (interchangeable with Duncan)
2008: 1st
2009: 2nd (behind LeBron)
2010: 2nd (behind LeBron. Weaker RS but turned it on HEAVY in the Playoffs)
2011: 6th (behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Howard, Paul)
2012: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, KG, Westbrook. Interchangeable with Wade and Dirk)
2013: 6th-8th range (behind LeBron, Durant, CP3, Curry, Duncan. Interchangeable with Harden and Westbrook)

So I have him outside the top 5 in 2000, 2005 and 2011-13, though he is on the cusp in most of those.

I'm suprised you have him 2nd in 2001, I'd say that's one of the two years he has a decent bitw argument(2008 is the other though Lebron looms). The rest of this list seems like Wade/Nash/KG erasure. Wade in paticular was better vs Boston in 2010 and I don't really get his argument against Wade in 2006.

Well, 2001 Shaq was 98% as good as 2000 Shaq, which is a top 3 peak of all time. If you think Kobe was better than Shaq that year then you would be saying Kobe peaked that high too, and if you think that then it wouldn't make sense to have him lower in 2006-09 given those years are at worst interchangeable with 2001.

As for being over Wade in 2006: Kobe led an absolutely putrid supporting cast to the 7th best SRS and 8th best offense in the league. This was a team starting Smush Parker, Brian Cook and either Chris Mihm or Kwame Brown at center. Odom is nice but he's best suited to being a 3rd option, not 2nd, and he alone doesn't make up for 3/5 starters being D-League level.

Pre-ASB Odom was pretty inconsistent, averaging 14/9/5 on 53% TS with plenty of single-digit scoring games. Kobe still had the Lakers at .500 through all that. For the last 30 games Odom upped his level to 16/9/6 on 60% TS and the Lakers were 19-11 to end the season, which is funnily enough comparable to the 52-30 Heat in '06 which had Wade with a still high-level All-Star in Shaq + other experienced vets rounding out the roster.

It goes to you only need to give Kobe SOMETHING to work with, even a somewhat competent non-All Star like Odom will do, and he'll produce impressive team results. The 7th best SRS this year was the Clippers: a pretty deep team with 3 All-Star level players. For Kobe to take the '06 Lakers to that level is INSANE impact.

Hope that explains why I rate him that high. This is obviously on top of all the raw numbers that people use, 40+ point month averages, 81 in a game, 62 in three quarters, but what I explained above shows there was actual definitive impact behind those stats and it's not just empty calories.

For reference, here's my top 5 for '06-'10:

2006: Kobe, Wade, Dirk, LeBron, Nash
2007: Kobe, Duncan, Nash, LeBron, Dirk (idm Kobe as low as 3 here and either Nash or Duncan as first)
2008: Kobe, CP3, LeBron, KG, Dirk
2009: LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Howard, CP3
2010: LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk

I think Nash and Wade were incredible players and it was never my intention to "erase" them. I think Nash has a hell of a case as the best player itw in 2005, and I don't mind if someone prefers Wade over Kobe in 2010.

As for KG, well, I fundamentally disagree with a section of this board on how impactful he was. Very good player but outside of 2003-05 don't believe he was ever close to better than Kobe. They had similarly putrid casts for a three-year stretch and while Kobe was leading top 8 offenses into the Playoffs, Garnett's teams were horrifically bad on both ends.