Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[One_and_Done]

The 05 Lakers were in playoff contention before injuries.

They were also a .500 win team with Kobe and barely worse without him.

I think 2005 was a season where Kobe really wasn't fully engaged for multiple reasons and didn't have a refined skill-set yet to fully burden the Franchise on his back.

That's fine, he is still an ATG player and absolute legend.

He was suffering from Plantar F for first half of season that tanked his jumper. Look it up. His shooting splits early on were abnormal. When he recovered, he was like a 27-28 ppg scorer on 59% TS.

This is extremely exaggerated, but let's say it was true. Does that mean we can just chalk off 05 from Kobe's resume? After all, he was apparently badly hurt, so that's 1 less prime year for him.

[rebirthoftheM]

They were also a .500 win team with Kobe and barely worse without him.

I think 2005 was a season where Kobe really wasn't fully engaged for multiple reasons and didn't have a refined skill-set yet to fully burden the Franchise on his back.

That's fine, he is still an ATG player and absolute legend.

He was suffering from Plantar F for first half of season that tanked his jumper. Look it up. His shooting splits early on were abnormal. When he recovered, he was like a 27-28 ppg scorer on 59% TS.

This is extremely exaggerated, but let's say it was true. Does that mean we can just chalk off 05 from Kobe's resume? After all, he was apparently badly hurt, so that's 1 less prime year for him.

Not at all exaggerated. You can find articles from the time on it. Kobe's jumpshot totally disappeared under this injury & then magically reappeared when he got over it. I recall Kobe leaning more into bankers to find a solution. Doesn't take a genius to make the connection of what happened.

And no, we don't ignore it, just that when discussing '05 we should include injuries in the analysis.

In fact given how injuries & surgeries impacted Kobe over the years, this all could be held against him.

[One_and_Done]

Well if a guy is injured he can't get the credit for that being a prime year can he. Do you give KD credit for 2020 when he warmed a bench. Obviously not.

[rebirthoftheM]

Well if a guy is injured he can't get the credit for that being a prime year can he. Do you give KD credit for 2020 when he warmed a bench. Obviously not.

I do not give him credit. It merely provides context that mitigates his total condemnation for that season. We can't talk 04-05 Kobe without his injuries.

[One_and_Done]

So by your logic Kobe wasn't in his prime in 05. Good to know. So Kobe gets credit for one less prime year

[rebirthoftheM]

So by your logic Kobe wasn't in his prime in 05. Good to know. So Kobe gets credit for one less prime year

He was suffering a major injury in the first half of the season. And that is relevant to note for that season. I do not see how this is controversial.

[ty 4191]

I think I'm more kind towards Kobe the player than I am to some who just sort of gloss over his negatives as a player. It's a really dishonest form of evaluation imo when people only talk about his strengths and don't want to see his limitations/weaknesses. Even statistically speaking his case for top 10 isn't that strong. His longevity is fairly good but it's really the rings and his place as a Laker icon that has gotten him top 10 or even top 5 talk over the years imo. If he'd been a career Nugget or Hawk who won 1 ring it'd be easier for many people to accept him being in the 15-20 range. I have him at about 15 but anywhere from 13-18 seems acceptable to me.

This assessment of yours is spot on. He's about 15th all time.

Kobe is now 80th all time in True Shooting Added per 82 games, and, despite being 9th all time in minutes played, is ~50th in career TS Added.

Incredibly inefficient shooter and that nearly never gets discussed in full.

See spreadsheet, here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZKyz688S74yyo8Dy4T5vuAkIXZggKJK6QdiUnQqSx8/edit#gid=174375588

Otoh the range sounds entirely plausible ... I think I could go lower tbh but I haven't looked closely.

That said regarding some of the points and claims ...

Incredibly inefficient shooter

You wouldn't put someone who was that at circa 15. Maybe if it was Bill Russell, but Kobe isn't that.

That phrasing ... bad Elvin Hayes years, Blaylock, Stew Johnson, bad Kidd years ... that's what the phrasing above evokes. Even if you imply "for an all time great" as implicit it rings too aggressive ... Hayes, Kidd are potential context. Then too that it isn't discussed ... I'm pretty sure "chucker" has been thrown around.

Thus Bryant, 48th on that (cited) list, isn't really circa 50th, with his exact position depending on criteria (e.g. does ABA count) and how many have passed him (or fallen back behind him) since 2019 (plus any further gaps in the lists).

Owly,
Good points; I was imprecise with my language and you make very valid and reasonable "Editor Style" points, here.

The list is also not comprehensive, as you pointed out, but it gives us a broad sketch of someone who (regardless) was very inefficient for someone who is heralded as a top 5 or top 10 offensive player/shooter/scorer of all time by many, MANY people, here and elsewhere.

And a top. 5-10 PLAYER, all time, here and elsewhere.

With many, MANY people putting him only behind Jordan among all players of the past 40 years. I've heard many people online and in real life opine exactly that.

"For those who don't know, TS Added is the cumulative number of points above league average true shooting that a player has contributed in a season. A league average shooter will be a 0. The stat takes into account efficiency (since the more efficient you are, the more positive your number will be), volume (since high efficiency won't result in a high number without corresponding volume) and corrects for era by using the league average of a given year.

In terms of pure scoring ability, I can't think of another stat that does a better job of balancing volume, efficiency and era."

You really can parse the data any way you want; the point is, Kobe, for someone purported as one of the top 5-10 greatest shooters/scorers of all time, is tremendously overrated due to extreme inefficiency compared to basically all the all time greatest shooters/scorers all time....

Here's where Kobe ranks is True Shooting Added Per 82 Games, roughly (inclusive of your astute caveats- and, through 2019- I don't have the time to redo the entire study):





Thoughts?

Thanks!