How would we view a ringless LeBron?

[PistolPeteJR]

I mean, fine. Lebron might be ringless if he'd played his entire career with Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao. Who knows how many rings Kobe would have without Shaq if he was playing with Lamar Odom and Smush Parker as his number 2 and 3 scorers. And Jordan? I dunno, maybe with Charles Oakley as his robin he could have been a dynasty. But I doubt it.

It's irrelevant because that never would have happened that way.

To be really objective, if Kyrie didn't make that shot in 2016, they don't win, Allen doesn't make his, they don't win, Butler and Adebayo weren't injured, they probably don't win as it went to six anyway. OKC was close in all games and could've won with a little more experience (and refs calling things). Lebron had a fair amount of luck, in truth. It is what it is and he has four.

Excellent work. Now do it for every champion in history please. Let me know your findings. You may be surprised.

[jalengreen]

I mean, fine. Lebron might be ringless if he'd played his entire career with Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao. Who knows how many rings Kobe would have without Shaq if he was playing with Lamar Odom and Smush Parker as his number 2 and 3 scorers. And Jordan? I dunno, maybe with Charles Oakley as his robin he could have been a dynasty. But I doubt it.

It's irrelevant because that never would have happened that way.

To be really objective, if Kyrie didn't make that shot in 2016, they don't win, Allen doesn't make his, they don't win, Butler and Adebayo weren't injured, they probably don't win as it went to six anyway. OKC was close in all games and could've won with a little more experience (and refs calling things). Lebron had a fair amount of luck, in truth. It is what it is and he has four.

"To be really objective, allow me to not be objective at all."

[migya]

I mean, fine. Lebron might be ringless if he'd played his entire career with Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao. Who knows how many rings Kobe would have without Shaq if he was playing with Lamar Odom and Smush Parker as his number 2 and 3 scorers. And Jordan? I dunno, maybe with Charles Oakley as his robin he could have been a dynasty. But I doubt it.

It's irrelevant because that never would have happened that way.

To be really objective, if Kyrie didn't make that shot in 2016, they don't win, Allen doesn't make his, they don't win, Butler and Adebayo weren't injured, they probably don't win as it went to six anyway. OKC was close in all games and could've won with a little more experience (and refs calling things). Lebron had a fair amount of luck, in truth. It is what it is and he has four.

Excellent work. Now do it for every champion in history please. Let me know your findings. You may be surprised.

Why don't you do it, you seem to know that subject already.

[PistolPeteJR]

To be really objective, if Kyrie didn't make that shot in 2016, they don't win, Allen doesn't make his, they don't win, Butler and Adebayo weren't injured, they probably don't win as it went to six anyway. OKC was close in all games and could've won with a little more experience (and refs calling things). Lebron had a fair amount of luck, in truth. It is what it is and he has four.

Excellent work. Now do it for every champion in history please. Let me know your findings. You may be surprised.

Why don't you do it, you seem to know that subject already.

That's just it: it's been done. If you were truly interested in objectivity, you'd at least entertain the question, let alone research it.

Bye.

[OhayoKD]

To be really objective, if Kyrie didn't make that shot in 2016, they don't win, Allen doesn't make his, they don't win, Butler and Adebayo weren't injured, they probably don't win as it went to six anyway. OKC was close in all games and could've won with a little more experience (and refs calling things). Lebron had a fair amount of luck, in truth. It is what it is and he has four.

Excellent work. Now do it for every champion in history please. Let me know your findings. You may be surprised.

Why don't you do it, you seem to know that subject already.

Luck is when you score more than half your team's points in the second half while shutting down the most hyped half-court offense in history with 2 bad defenders as your highest minute teammates,

Just like luck is when you score or create your team's first 17 4th quarter points, score or create almost every bucket scored in the quarter, spend multiple possessions defending smalls, and also spend several possessions as your team's primary paint protector, while also having the defense key in on you since you're also your team's primary ball-handler.

Both were great 4th quarter performances completing/preserving clutch seasons(2013 heat were the 2nd best 4th quarter team in recorded history following the...2009 Cavs), but somehow singular plays from teammates are worth more attention. (The somehow is a certain man's mythos ofc)

[Colbinii]

Don't feed the troll guys. They are hungry, but that's because eating the mold under the bridge gets old.

[parsnips33]

I don't think being lucky is mutually exclusive with being good, obviously you'll need some degree of both to achieve an all-time great career

[eminence]

I probably couldn't put him over Russell/Duncan/KAJ in that scenario. He'd be battling MJ/2nd tier bigs in the next tier.

Much less sure on general perception, but I'd expect an even more steep drop (see KG who has respect here, but kinda regularly gets dropped from top 20s, and he even got his ring).

[Dutchball97]

He'd be a lot like Wilt imo. The stats are monstrous, the eye test is undeniable but it's hard to call someone the GOAT when they keep coming up short when it matters most. Still definitely top 10 though.

[EmpireFalls]

Skip Bayless would be a world-renowned billionaire and the most successful media member in world history.

[picko]

I really don't like it when people use 'luck' to diminish a players achievements. It's always applied unevenly and in truth almost every wildly successful career has benefited from a tremendous amount of luck. Even a small change in drafting or trading or key personnel can have profound impacts on a players career and legacy.

So yes, LeBron has benefited from Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving hitting big shots. However, if Kobe isn't drafted to play with Shaq (and later getting an all-time great coach) then there is a non-trivial chance that he doesn't win a ring (based purely on how difficult they are to win).

A coin-flip - the epitome of luck - determined whether Magic Johnson had an all-time great career or whether he grew increasingly frustrated on an lackluster Chicago team.

And Jordan, of course, benefited tremendously from Krause running rings around inept executives in the 1980s. That Jordan hasn't won a playoff series without Pippen argument is obviously quite silly but it does remind you that it's a team game and the quality of your teammates matters a great deal. If Pippen or Grant don't hit, then perhaps Jordan is remembered as that generation's 'Wilt' rather than as the game's greatest competitor.

And incidentally that's how LeBron would be remembered. As this generation's 'Wilt' in the absence of team success.

[migya]

I probably couldn't put him over Russell/Duncan/KAJ in that scenario. He'd be battling MJ/2nd tier bigs in the next tier.

Much less sure on general perception, but I'd expect an even more steep drop (see KG who has respect here, but kinda regularly gets dropped from top 20s, and he even got his ring).

What makes you think Duncan is ahead of Jordan? I see no argument for it. He had more talent on his teams than Jordan, was in a weaker decade in his prime, and won less, not always being the clear cut best player on his championship teams, where Jordan always was.

[eminence]

I probably couldn't put him over Russell/Duncan/KAJ in that scenario. He'd be battling MJ/2nd tier bigs in the next tier.

Much less sure on general perception, but I'd expect an even more steep drop (see KG who has respect here, but kinda regularly gets dropped from top 20s, and he even got his ring).

What makes you think Duncan is ahead of Jordan? I see no argument for it. He had more talent on his teams than Jordan, was in a weaker decade in his prime, and won less, not always being the clear cut best player on his championship teams, where Jordan always was.

Played better basketball.

[migya]

I probably couldn't put him over Russell/Duncan/KAJ in that scenario. He'd be battling MJ/2nd tier bigs in the next tier.

Much less sure on general perception, but I'd expect an even more steep drop (see KG who has respect here, but kinda regularly gets dropped from top 20s, and he even got his ring).

What makes you think Duncan is ahead of Jordan? I see no argument for it. He had more talent on his teams than Jordan, was in a weaker decade in his prime, and won less, not always being the clear cut best player on his championship teams, where Jordan always was.

Played better basketball.

That's a big take. Respect your view

[O_6]

It’s an interesting question, but it’s an interesting question for everyone near the top. 4 Finals MVPs actually occurred, that’s 3rd most all-time to MJ and Russell.

But if this happened he’s be somewhere between Karl Malone and Barry Bonds.

But if Curry had zero rings, who would he be? Far less than LeBron w/o rings for sure. Shaq/Duncan/Kobe? They had a lot of 50/50 rings there too and rings are a huge part of their legacies as well.