How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron?

[One_and_Done]

And no, we can't just cherry pick the finals. Gotta look at the whole season.

Yes, and the whole season shows a clear lower level of play for LeBron than most of his other years. He put on a bunch of unnecessary mass and it robbed him of his explosiveness. Combined with the as of yet lack of a developed post-game, it made his scoring a lot weaker.

Even if you look at the series leading up to the Finals, he simply wasn't the same as the years prior or after.

Even if Lebron played at say 80% of his usual prime level, which he didn't, he'd still be more impactful than Kobe.

[ardee]

Pretty sure there would be much more debate regarding peak Wade or peak Dirk vs 2011 LeBron, but for some reason, people are convinced that there’s no case for peak Kobe here. That’s crazy to me. I don’t really see objective proof of Wade or Dirk clearly out-peaking Kobe, to me they’re the same level players. And if we go by “prime” LeBron and just lump 2011 in there without context, he’s a fundamentally better player than Wade and Dirk as well.

Now you're starting to see what I've been dealing with in this place for a decade and a quarter.

I agree Dirk, Wade and Kobe are all pretty close peaks wise. I actually have Dirk as the best of them, and then Kobe and Wade right after, they're ranked 12-13-14 on my last peaks list.

An off-peak (albeit still prime) 2011 Wade was considered in the same ballpark as LeBron in 2011. People can try and retcon things by claiming LeBron was clearly the best, but it's bull, I know, I was an active fan at the time and everyone saw them as jostling for that top spot. LeBron was certainly better BEFORE 2011, but on the same team neither had a clearer greater impact than the other that year.

2011 was also considered peak Dirk, and he was INARGUABLY better than LeBron that year. He was the POY vote pretty clearly on this very forum and no one who actually watched that season doesn't consider Dirk the best player that year after what he achieved in those Playoffs (a run with a degree of difficulty that in my mind approaches '03 Duncan or '95 Hakeem, that's why I rank his peak so high).

So now you have people stating that Kobe has to be an entire level below Dirk and an off-peak Wade to not even be in the same ballpark as LeBron.

It's ludicrous and disprespectful and the only explanation is the sickening bias against Kobe on this board that has gone on forever. It seemed to get better in 2020 but in recent times it seems like it's back to business as usual.

As to why that bias exists, I can only assume it's out of a desire to be contrarian and go against traditional wisdom, which is that Kobe is a legendary player and GOAT candidate. I don't believe he's the latter, but when you take even a cursory look at his actual impact on helping a team win basketball games (which a good chunk of this board claims to be the only thing they care about), he still measures out way, WAY higher than most of the pseudo-intellectuals on here would like to believe.

[One_and_Done]

Not only is Kobe less impactful than Dirk and Wade, he is below Nash and CP3 too. Not in the top 20 anymore if we're being honest.

[ardee]

Not only is Kobe less impactful than Dirk and Wade, he is below Nash and CP3 too. Not in the top 20 anymore if we're being honest.

None of these things are true just because you say so. You're very clearly a massive troll who is on here only to get a reaction out of Kobe fans.

[One_and_Done]

Not only is Kobe less impactful than Dirk and Wade, he is below Nash and CP3 too. Not in the top 20 anymore if we're being honest.

None of these things are true just because you say so. You're very clearly a massive troll who is on here only to get a reaction out of Kobe fans.

There are plenty of numbers and indicators that support this proposition. Trolling in your mind just means not hyping Kobe to the lofty status you have elevated him to. I said he was worse than Steve Nash, Dirk, Wade, and CP3. These guys were MVP type players and hall of fame 1st ballot guys. I didn't compare Kobe to Paul George and Blake Griffin.

If you can't handle hearing alternative view points just put me back on block. I won't mind, I promise.

[therealbig3]

I consider Nash/Dirk/CP3/Wade/Curry ALL at around the same level. But Kobe is in that group too. So why can only some of them be argued over 2011 LeBron, but not others (and others in this case meaning, just Kobe)?

[therealbig3]

Heat starters for the finals were Joel Anthony who couldn't shoot, a washed Mike Bibby who couldn't hit shots, Wade who was never great shakes from 3, and Bosh who wasn't being used as a 3pt shooter. Lebron thrives best when surrounded by shooting; he had zero shooting. That's the failure of the Heat to use him right, not Lebron.

I also love this notion that the solution is to replace Lebron with Kobe, who is not only a worse player in every sense, but who was actually spanked by this exact Mavs team in Rnd 2. Not a tough 6 game seties; he was literally swept, while putting up shockingly bad numbers. 23-3-2 on 519 TS%. He played worse than Lebron did, despite either being in his prime or close to it. Heading into the season/playoffs, the Lakers were considered the favourites by most, because they had a more balanced team, and nobody thought Kobe was out of his prime. It was only after Dirk humiliated him that he was suddenly no longer in his prime.

As others have said, there is too much focus on 1 series where Lebron was subpar. With Kobe they never make it to the finals to begin with.

Ranking LeBron’s 2011 Finals over Kobe’s 2011 vs the Mavs is indefensible. Literally no case for it.

This might be the worst take in this thread

LeBron was better overall that year, but that series isn’t anywhere close to the reason why, he failed worse than Kobe did. I think you really need to stop arguing things that you never watched or don’t remember and are clearly just depending on BBR at this point.

If they are depending on BBR, then why don't you be a dear and illustrate the very definitely not bbr-informed case for Kobe being definitively better than Lebron against the Mavs while his team gave the Mavs what was, far and away, their highest series rating of those playoffs.

Lebron is being criticised too much for having a flawed and poor fitting team around him with garbage shooting in the starting line-up.

Heat generated 107.9 ORTG (+1.9 rORTG playoffs considered) in the finals with LeBron averaging 18-7-7 on +1.1 rTS%.

LeBron averaged 27-8-5 on +3.2 rTS against 1st (Bulls) and 2nd (Celtics) best defenses in the NBA.

Heat won 4-1 against +5 SRS (Celtics) and +6.5 SRS (Bulls) teams.

Heat were 2-1 and +9 in the 4th quarter in G4 - LeBron scored 8 points in that game, eventually lost by 3.

What a flawed team that prevented LeBron from showing up in the finals.

The Mavericks posted a +21 srs in a sweep of the defending champs amid going 12-3 against 3 55+win teams in a period of non-expansion. Whatever the regular-season statistics, the Mavericks were a level up from either opponent in the playoffs

The heat being flawed/of questionable fit doesn't really get proven or disproven when you pull up results, with Lebron, against inferior teams to the Mavericks. Especially when said results, leaving out the finals, are pretty disappointing when compared to what Lebron teams did in surrounding years(especially when he returned to cleveland).

Some of this is Lebron's performance dropping, some of this is the Mavericks being an excellent team, and some of this is the team being suboptimal both in terms of fit and coaching, the latter point being reflected in how the Heat were playing before the finals if you aren't using circular logic.

Sure, Kobe to me was not the Lakers biggest issue at all. Kobe actually more or less played his game, but went up against, as others have said, a fantastic team that had strong defenders all over the place. I also think whatever his overall numbers are, they are skewed by a small sample size of 4 games, 3 of which were competitive and 1 which was an absolute blowout. Typically, Kobe was the only consistent offense for the Lakers, but 1. he wasn't his prime self anymore (noticeably less explosive and quick, starting to slow down because of injuries piling up as well), and 2. guys like Odom and Gasol were getting older as well and played quite poorly in that series. Bynum was hit or miss. All in all, yeah they won a bunch of RS games and were the defending champs, but I don't think they were actually that good any more.

I think as an actual basketball player though, he was still one of the better offensive weapons in the league and I think handled Dallas's defense much better than LeBron did, who basically just took a backseat to Wade and did a total disappearing act in the latter half of the series. Now as for overall team performance, the Lakers got manhandled and couldn't defend Dallas at all. Are we going to put that at the feet of Kobe? Fine, if you want, but doesn't seem fair. I also strongly disagree with this notion that the Heat's biggest issue was poor fit and poor coaching. Whether or not LeBron's teams played better before or after that season against better teams is irrelevant. LeBron himself was a much better basketball player before and after 2011. In those playoffs, although the Mavs may have been the best team they faced, they still faced two very strong teams who were among the best in the league during the RS and beat both in 5 games. And regardless, in terms of talent, it was a team with 2 top 5 players and a top 15-20 player. It was a top heavy team, and a better version of LeBron would have made it work better, I don't think you need much else when you have basically a peak Wade and still prime Bosh next to you. The Dallas defense had his number though...and in actuality, Kobe with that kind of high end talent next to him would have made it work better, because he had a more versatile and portable game at his peak than 2011 LeBron did.

[One_and_Done]

I consider Nash/Dirk/CP3/Wade/Curry ALL at around the same level. But Kobe is in that group too. So why can only some of them be argued over 2011 LeBron, but not others (and others in this case meaning, just Kobe)?

Was I arguing for any of them over Lebron?

[therealbig3]

I mean if you feel that 2011 LeBron is better than peak Wade/Dirk/CP3/Nash as well, then at least you are being consistent.

[One_and_Done]

I mean if you feel that 2011 LeBron is better than peak Wade/Dirk/CP3/Nash as well, then at least you are being consistent.

He is. Team was flawed though. Don't get me wrong, 2011 isn't peak Lebron. He was subpar in the finals, but over the whole year I'd absolutely take him over those guys.

I don't agree Kobe is on the 'same tier' as all those guys either, but I guess that depends how you define tier. As I said, I'd have all of them over him.

[ardee]

Not only is Kobe less impactful than Dirk and Wade, he is below Nash and CP3 too. Not in the top 20 anymore if we're being honest.

None of these things are true just because you say so. You're very clearly a massive troll who is on here only to get a reaction out of Kobe fans.

There are plenty of numbers and indicators that support this proposition.

Yeah, raw stats and TS% along with some random RAPM numbers. You used similar arguments to say that LeBron's 2011 Finals = Magic's 1980 Finals, which really shows where your credibility is at. You've never watched the games or probably even the highlights. Your arguments are just regurgitated numbers from BBR and RAPM data.

Trolling in your mind just means not hyping Kobe to the lofty status you have elevated him to.

Yeah, I didn't do any elevating. My view on Kobe is much closer to both the mainstream as well as the knowledgeable fanbase. Even those on this forum who are lower on Kobe than the mainstream would laugh at the notion of CP3 or Nash ahead of Kobe.

YOU'RE the one who is pushing ideas that are out of step with conventional wisdom for anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the game and you have nothing to back it up other than a few cherry-picked numbers and zero context.

[ardee]

I mean if you feel that 2011 LeBron is better than peak Wade/Dirk/CP3/Nash as well, then at least you are being consistent.

Which again is pretty ridiculous because peak Dirk and 2011 LeBron happened in the SAME season and it was very clear which one was better.

[One_and_Done]

None of these things are true just because you say so. You're very clearly a massive troll who is on here only to get a reaction out of Kobe fans.

There are plenty of numbers and indicators that support this proposition.

Yeah, raw stats and TS% along with some random RAPM numbers. You used similar arguments to say that LeBron's 2011 Finals = Magic's 1980 Finals, which really shows where your credibility is at. You've never watched the games or probably even the highlights. Your arguments are just regurgitated numbers from BBR and RAPM data.

Trolling in your mind just means not hyping Kobe to the lofty status you have elevated him to.

Yeah, I didn't do any elevating. My view on Kobe is much closer to both the mainstream as well as the knowledgeable fanbase. Even those on this forum who are lower on Kobe than the mainstream would laugh at the notion of CP3 or Nash ahead of Kobe.

YOU'RE the one who is pushing ideas that are out of step with conventional wisdom for anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the game and you have nothing to back it up other than a few cherry-picked numbers and zero context.

"Most people agree with me" is a terrible comeback.

[One_and_Done]

I mean if you feel that 2011 LeBron is better than peak Wade/Dirk/CP3/Nash as well, then at least you are being consistent.

Which again is pretty ridiculous because peak Dirk and 2011 LeBron happened in the SAME season and it was very clear which one was better.

It's clear whose team was better. If Lebron had the 2012 Heat team in 2011 then he wins the title and nobody thinks Dirk is better.

[OhayoKD]

Ranking LeBron’s 2011 Finals over Kobe’s 2011 vs the Mavs is indefensible. Literally no case for it.

This might be the worst take in this thread

LeBron was better overall that year, but that series isn’t anywhere close to the reason why, he failed worse than Kobe did. I think you really need to stop arguing things that you never watched or don’t remember and are clearly just depending on BBR at this point.

If they are depending on BBR, then why don't you be a dear and illustrate the very definitely not bbr-informed case for Kobe being definitively better than Lebron against the Mavs while his team gave the Mavs what was, far and away, their highest series rating of those playoffs.

Heat generated 107.9 ORTG (+1.9 rORTG playoffs considered) in the finals with LeBron averaging 18-7-7 on +1.1 rTS%.

LeBron averaged 27-8-5 on +3.2 rTS against 1st (Bulls) and 2nd (Celtics) best defenses in the NBA.

Heat won 4-1 against +5 SRS (Celtics) and +6.5 SRS (Bulls) teams.

Heat were 2-1 and +9 in the 4th quarter in G4 - LeBron scored 8 points in that game, eventually lost by 3.

What a flawed team that prevented LeBron from showing up in the finals.

The Mavericks posted a +21 srs in a sweep of the defending champs amid going 12-3 against 3 55+win teams in a period of non-expansion. Whatever the regular-season statistics, the Mavericks were a level up from either opponent in the playoffs

The heat being flawed/of questionable fit doesn't really get proven or disproven when you pull up results, with Lebron, against inferior teams to the Mavericks. Especially when said results, leaving out the finals, are pretty disappointing when compared to what Lebron teams did in surrounding years(especially when he returned to cleveland).

Some of this is Lebron's performance dropping, some of this is the Mavericks being an excellent team, and some of this is the team being suboptimal both in terms of fit and coaching, the latter point being reflected in how the Heat were playing before the finals if you aren't using circular logic.

Sure, Kobe to me was not the Lakers biggest issue at all. Kobe actually more or less played his game, but went up against, as others have said, a fantastic team that had strong defenders all over the place. I also think whatever his overall numbers are, they are skewed by a small sample size of 4 games, 3 of which were competitive and 1 which was an absolute blowout. Typically, Kobe was the only consistent offense for the Lakers, but 1. he wasn't his prime self anymore (noticeably less explosive and quick, starting to slow down because of injuries piling up as well), and 2. guys like Odom and Gasol were getting older as well and played quite poorly in that series. Bynum was hit or miss. All in all, yeah they won a bunch of RS games and were the defending champs, but I don't think they were actually that good any more.

I think as an actual basketball player though, he was still one of the better offensive weapons in the league and I think handled Dallas's defense much better than LeBron did

You are functionally just repeating your claim. What ways did Kobe "better handle the defense" not reflected in BBR?

who basically just took a backseat to Wade and did a total disappearing act in the latter half of the series.

Focusing more on playmaking than scoring does not make Lebron's peformance worse than Kobe. Lebron created significantly more open looks than Kobe did, and was doing that even in the latter half. This is just lazy narrativising.

Now as for overall team performance, the Lakers got manhandled and couldn't defend Dallas at all. Are we going to put that at the feet of Kobe? Fine, if you want, but doesn't seem fair. I also strongly disagree with this notion that the Heat's biggest issue was poor fit and poor coaching.

I never specified it as the "biggest", so not sure what the point of this is.

Whether or not LeBron's teams played better before or after that season against better teams is irrelevant. LeBron himself was a much better basketball player before and after 2011.

It is relevant to assessing the fit when you use the results of 2011 as proof the fit and coaching wasn't a problem. You do not have a point here if surrounding seasons are irrelevant.

In those playoffs, although the Mavs may have been the best team they faced, they still faced two very strong teams who were among the best in the league during the RS and beat both in 5 games.

Okay? The Mavs were much better. It doesn't matter how good they were to this point unless they were good enough that the Mavs weren't a big upgrade.

And regardless, in terms of talent, it was a team with 2 top 5 players and a top 15-20 player. It was a top heavy team, and a better version of LeBron would have made it work better, I don't think you need much else when you have basically a peak Wade and still prime Bosh next to you.

Still no real comparison to Kobe. Lebron had a more top-heavy team, Kobe had a better balanced one. Lebron's team did much better, and still have offered nothing for why basketball reference would be overstating Lebron's performance and understating Kobe's.

The Dallas defense had his number though...and in actuality, Kobe with that kind of high end talent next to him would have made it work better

Hypothetical claim based on..,well I don't know, because after saying "you have to look beyond BBR", you proceeded to avoid talking about the actual basketball played.

because he had a more versatile and portable game at his peak than 2011 LeBron did.

If empty adjectives are all you have to offer here. then perhaps you should not be so confident Kobe played better, or that someone who thinks he didn't is relying too much on BBR.

[tone wone]

Pretty sure there would be much more debate regarding peak Wade or peak Dirk vs 2011 LeBron, but for some reason, people are convinced that there’s no case for peak Kobe here. That’s crazy to me. I don’t really see objective proof of Wade or Dirk clearly out-peaking Kobe, to me they’re the same level players. And if we go by “prime” LeBron and just lump 2011 in there without context, he’s a fundamentally better player than Wade and Dirk as well.

Yeah, if you treat that 2011 season as some unimpressive forgettable down season on the level of Kobe's 2004 or massive decline on the level of post LA Shaq or 2008 Duncan then yeah Kobe not having ANY years better is disrespectful.

The thing is, 2011 LeBron is more on the level of '91 Magic or '79 Kareem or '04 Duncan. Ask how many seasons Wade-Kobe-Dirk have better than those years. Between them? A handful. Ask many seasons you think Wade-Kobe-Dirk were flat out better players and you might not find a single season between them.

Lebron is being overly punished for a really bad Finals in comparison with a player with a middling Finals track record. An elite 2-way season being hand-waved for a player who doesn't have a single one to his name because he wasn't that caliber of defender.

The overall goodness of a player vs how clean and accomplished a season a player has.. is an eternal battle we'll never fully figure out.

[ardee]

There are plenty of numbers and indicators that support this proposition.

Yeah, raw stats and TS% along with some random RAPM numbers. You used similar arguments to say that LeBron's 2011 Finals = Magic's 1980 Finals, which really shows where your credibility is at. You've never watched the games or probably even the highlights. Your arguments are just regurgitated numbers from BBR and RAPM data.

Trolling in your mind just means not hyping Kobe to the lofty status you have elevated him to.

Yeah, I didn't do any elevating. My view on Kobe is much closer to both the mainstream as well as the knowledgeable fanbase. Even those on this forum who are lower on Kobe than the mainstream would laugh at the notion of CP3 or Nash ahead of Kobe.

YOU'RE the one who is pushing ideas that are out of step with conventional wisdom for anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the game and you have nothing to back it up other than a few cherry-picked numbers and zero context.

"Most people agree with me" is a terrible comeback.

That's not a comeback, just the truth. YOU were the one who said I was "elevating Kobe to a lofty status", implying how good I believe he was is unusual. The fact is that my evaluation of Kobe is MUCH closer to the mean of how he's seen, so YOU'RE the one with the out of wack rating and the onus is on YOU to actually PROVE your statements.

[One_and_Done]

Yeah, raw stats and TS% along with some random RAPM numbers. You used similar arguments to say that LeBron's 2011 Finals = Magic's 1980 Finals, which really shows where your credibility is at. You've never watched the games or probably even the highlights. Your arguments are just regurgitated numbers from BBR and RAPM data.



Yeah, I didn't do any elevating. My view on Kobe is much closer to both the mainstream as well as the knowledgeable fanbase. Even those on this forum who are lower on Kobe than the mainstream would laugh at the notion of CP3 or Nash ahead of Kobe.

YOU'RE the one who is pushing ideas that are out of step with conventional wisdom for anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the game and you have nothing to back it up other than a few cherry-picked numbers and zero context.

"Most people agree with me" is a terrible comeback.

That's not a comeback, just the truth. YOU were the one who said I was "elevating Kobe to a lofty status", implying how good I believe he was is unusual. The fact is that my evaluation of Kobe is MUCH closer to the mean of how he's seen, so YOU'RE the one with the out of wack rating and the onus is on YOU to actually PROVE your statements.

The burden is on both sides of an argument to validate what they're saying. This isn't like a court of law, where one side has to prove the crime happened beyond reasonable doubt. Kobe has to be meet the ordinary standard of proof here.