How many PGs would you take over Kyrie Irving all-time?

[Narigo]

??

[SpreeS]

I would take players like Conley/Lowry/Jrue over Irving b/c of

1. No drama on and off court.
2. Better team chemistry.
3. Better availability.
4. Better defence.
5. Better fit to first/second options.
6. Better playmakers.
7. Better IQ players.

[migya]

Many. Kyrie has high usage, doesn't pass at high level and often and not good defense. In this era he works reasonably, scoring well, but any other era he isn't a PG and is a liability defending anyone, let alone SGs.

[ardee]

He has perhaps a top 20 peak for the position, but for career quite a few. Just too many injuries and off-court issues that translate into a lower on-court impact.

[70sFan]

Too many to name without making extensive list.

[The Master]

I would take players like Conley/Lowry/Jrue over Irving b/c of

Yeah. If Kyle Lowry-level of the player in his prime was in position to play:

1) 3 years alongside LeBron
2) 2 years in stacked Boston
3) 2 years in Nets alongside KD and JH + one additional year
4) 2 years alongside Doncic

the career outcome would be better than what Kyrie for several reasons (injuries, off-court issues) was able to provide. The whole reputation of Kyrie as a God-level point guard skill-wise and playoff performer has resulted from the fact he's been in winning position since very early in his career, so yeah, he's had his moments.

[Pelly24]

I would take players like Conley/Lowry/Jrue over Irving b/c of

Yeah. If Kyle Lowry-level of the player in his prime was in position to play:

1) 3 years alongside LeBron
2) 2 years in stacked Boston
3) 2 years in Nets alongside KD and JH + one additional year
4) 2 years alongside Doncic

the career outcome would be better than what Kyrie for several reasons (injuries, off-court issues) was able to provide. The whole reputation of Kyrie as a God-level point guard skill-wise and playoff performer has resulted from the fact he's been in winning position since very early in his career, so yeah, he's had his moments.

None of these guys are as good as Kyrie. It's funny how certain stuff gets overlooked for certain people because they're not glamorous. Like, Conley has played with great teams for most of his career. Marc Gasol was an All-Star/All-NBA level player, top 15-20 type guy, Zach Randolph was an all-star type. Conley played with Rudy Gay during some of those years. And yet, no one cares about how he's never been to the conference finals as the No. 1 option and how his scoring efficiency in the playoffs is kind of mid, stuff like that. Jrue Holiday is supposedly some incredibly valuable two-way dynamo, and yet, he goes multi-year gaps without making the playoffs (even *with* Anthony Davis) and has a career playoff TS% of 52 TS% and when he did win a championship, he had a 49 TS%, which would be untenable if he didn't have a good second option in Middleton and MVP Giannis on his team, and it wouldn't have been good enough had any of the actual superstars been available to play in 2021. When tasked to be the No. 2 option, Jrue had a whole playoff run where he had a 47 TS%. He played good defense, but thats just terrible, and he was clearly a reason why the Bucks lost. I'll just stick to those two for now.

But yeah, like it's funny how no one ever brings up those criticisms when it's time to compare them to Kyrie, when Kyrie's pretty much always done better than that, and he's done so in roles where he had way more of a load to carry. Jrue usually misses the playoffs in his career, regardless of playing with all-stars or not. And when he's in the playoffs, he's such a poor scorer, you're doomed if he's one of your first two best players. Conley was never the clearcut No. 1 option on his teams, which were always well-rounded enough to help bolster him anyway. Meanwhile, Kyrie's technically accomplished the same thing Conley did (getting to the second round of the playoffs) except, he was the undisputed best player on his team, and his team was *worse*, all you have to do is look at the bballreff on/off for the Celtics offense when Kyrie was off the floor in 2019. But the difference is, Kyrie has had great runs in the playoffs as a No. 2 option, and has made it as by far the No. 1 option. Kyrie was great in 2016, pretty good in 2017, excellent in 2021 before injury, mediocre/bad in 2022 (after a weird on/off season where he missed a bunch of time, his fault though) and very good in 2024. Kyrie and Luka are the only legit playmakers and shot-creators on the whole Mavs squad, which has largely gotten by on defense. Which means Kyrie has had to be a very good passer, a very good scorer and shot-maker and a very good ballhandler and playmaker, and he's done all of these things. No version of Jrue Holiday is getting all of this done. I don't think Conley has the size to defend at the elite level Kyrie has at multiple points this postseason, and I don't think he cold handle the one-on-one scoring he would need to do against elite defenders the way Kyrie has this playoff season (and Kyrie has been doubled and blitzed fairly often depending on the matchup).

Kyrie might not be the GOAT-skill God people think, but his success is not some fluke, and the fact that y'all overlook Conley and Jrue and even some of Lowry's failures in these comparisons only speaks to the unconscious knowledge that you simply have lower expectations of them, so it doesn't register. Conley and Jrue and Lowry also didn't get good as soon as Kyrie. Kyrie was essentially an all-star from his rookie year on. From that point on, he's essentially never scored below league average efficiency, and he's usually scored over 22 ppg and 5 assists on near 50/40/90 or plus 3 TS% with very Low turnovers and he's had some epic playoff runs, won a Gold Medal, FIBA MVP, etc. He just has a level of actual, immutable ability that these guys have never matched, and he's even got better longevity being in his prime/peak ability at age 32. This just isn't a comparison. Let Kyrie be a third option where no one is guarding him and he'll average like 30 on 65 TS% lol.


I just don't see how Jrue, Conley and Lowry have real arguments over Kyrie.

Kyrie's got a championship over a 73-win team as the undisputed No. 2 option. He's in his fourth NBA Finals, and was one of the best players essentially all playoffs and has carved up elite defenses in multiple ways while playing great defense. He's led 50-win teams and a No. 1 seed as the best player (people keep trying to brush that off and say Boston is stacked, and yet, Kyrie gets all the blame for the Celtics failures. So he should get most of the credit for their wins, too.). He's made 8 all-star teams, and he would have more if not for injuries and his stupid decisions. He's made three All-NBA teams, and he's easily got arguments to have made the team in 2017, 2018 (played 60 games), and 2024 (injuries, fair enough). His career BPM, ws/48, scoring efficiency, other stuff trumps all of these guys. He's got better playoff runs than them. He's better at pretty much every level. The eye test, the career results and the listed accomplishments all confirm this. You would have to overlook Jrue's missing the playoffs a bunch of times, coming up even worse than Kyrie in the playoffs, a bunch of stuff to even have Jrue in this conversation.

[eminence]

His career isn't over yet, so I could see him entering/slightly passing that Conley/Lowry/Jrue tier, but as of now he's low enough that I wouldn't bother putting together a list. Probably ~30.

[Pelly24]

Many. Kyrie has high usage, doesn't pass at high level and often and not good defense. In this era he works reasonably, scoring well, but any other era he isn't a PG and is a liability defending anyone, let alone SGs.

also I don't see why he wouldn't just be a better version of Steve Francis in the 2000s or 90s. He's one of the greatest shooters ever, the greatest ballhandler ever, etc. No reason he couldn't get 22/6/6 on 47/40/90 back then.

[AEnigma]

I would take players like Conley/Lowry/Jrue over Irving b/c of

Yeah. If Kyle Lowry-level of the player in his prime was in position to play:

1) 3 years alongside LeBron
2) 2 years in stacked Boston
3) 2 years in Nets alongside KD and JH + one additional year
4) 2 years alongside Doncic

the career outcome would be better than what Kyrie for several reasons (injuries, off-court issues) was able to provide. The whole reputation of Kyrie as a God-level point guard skill-wise and playoff performer has resulted from the fact he's been in winning position since very early in his career, so yeah, he's had his moments.

None of these guys are as good as Kyrie. It's funny how certain stuff gets overlooked for certain people because they're not glamorous. Like, Conley has played with great teams for most of his career. Marc Gasol was an All-Star/All-NBA level player, top 15-20 type guy, Zach Randolph was an all-star type. Conley played with Rudy Gay during some of those years. And yet, no one cares about how he's never been to the conference finals as the No. 1 option and how his scoring efficiency in the playoffs is kind of mid, stuff like that.

Kyrie’s playoff career true shooting is 56.6%; Conley’s true shooting over the same span is 57.7%. Obviously I am not saying Kyrie is a worse scorer than any of these players, but when your entire post is an extended laudation of how Kyrie’s brilliant scoring advantage makes up for being undoubtedly the worst passer and defender of this group, focusing on efficiency is a strange move.

[Pelly24]

Yeah. If Kyle Lowry-level of the player in his prime was in position to play:

1) 3 years alongside LeBron
2) 2 years in stacked Boston
3) 2 years in Nets alongside KD and JH + one additional year
4) 2 years alongside Doncic

the career outcome would be better than what Kyrie for several reasons (injuries, off-court issues) was able to provide. The whole reputation of Kyrie as a God-level point guard skill-wise and playoff performer has resulted from the fact he's been in winning position since very early in his career, so yeah, he's had his moments.

None of these guys are as good as Kyrie. It's funny how certain stuff gets overlooked for certain people because they're not glamorous. Like, Conley has played with great teams for most of his career. Marc Gasol was an All-Star/All-NBA level player, top 15-20 type guy, Zach Randolph was an all-star type. Conley played with Rudy Gay during some of those years. And yet, no one cares about how he's never been to the conference finals as the No. 1 option and how his scoring efficiency in the playoffs is kind of mid, stuff like that.

Kyrie’s playoff career true shooting is 56.6%; Conley’s true shooting over the same span is 57.7%. Obviously I am not saying Kyrie is a worse scorer than any of these players, but when your entire post is an extended laudation of how Kyrie’s brilliant scoring advantage makes up for being undoubtedly the worst passer and defender of this group, focusing on efficiency is a strange move.

His usage rate and role as a scorer his more than Conley's, and looking at Conley's peak/prime — when he was one of the best two or so scoring options on his team, he's at 52 TS%. So I would say Kyrie was clearly a better playoff performer.

For me, it's not even really just about the scoring efficiency, but when compared to Jrue in particular, that's just an insurmountable gap. It's like, what did Jrue do that Kyrie didn't? Kyrie gets bashed for not making the playoffs early in his career with Dion Waiters, so why doesn't Jrue get bashed for missing the playoffs even when he had Anthony Davis on his team? Why doesn't Jrue get bashed for his 2022 playoffs? He was in the No. 2 scoring option spot like kyrie, but was much, much worse and only played well against a garbage bulls team, and even then wasn't that good. Everyone wants to say, "Oh, Kyrie's a robin, flashy dribble dribble," but what does it say that Jrue wasn't even actually capable of being a championship or conference finals-level Robin? Most of the time, him being your robin didn't even result in a playoff spot lol. And then he's never done anything like what Kyrie did on the Celtics, scoring and closing and passing his way to win close games night in and night out, 16-game win streak, etc.

It just seems like a lot of double standards based on stereotypes. Kyrie has done more as no. 1 option *and* as a second option than any of these players ever have, all while making more all-nba teams, more all-star teams, scoring more points more efficiently, going on deeper playoff runs in more prominent roles while beating better teams. he's basically outdone them in everything tangible, but because they are more likable and stable, and because their games aren't as flashy, they're given more leeway for poor/inconsequential play and they're thought to be more effective. But the results and the stats simply tell a different story.

[AEnigma]

What “stats” prefer Kyrie as a rule other than scoring volume? Literally no one is disputing that Kyrie is a better scorer. That is established. However, continually repeating that he is a better scorer is not an argument why he should be considered better overall. Is Kyrie making more playoffs in Jrue’s place on the Pelicans? Assuming similar health, I do not think so, no. Is Kyrie winning that 2022 Bucks series? I do not think so, no. Jrue does not have a real capacity to put up scoring performances like Kyrie did against the Warriors and Timberwolves… but Kyrie has no hope of shutting down opposing all-NBA guards like Jrue did against the Blazers and Suns. You know there is more to player assessment than scoring ability, so why is scoring all you can offer in defence of Kyrie?

[Colbinii]

His trajectory after 2016 was incredibly high. He had that Spurs game in 2015 where he scored 57 points with an incredibly difficult shot diet.

Honestly, you ignore his 2015 Injury and the Cavaliers have 2 NBA Championships and possibly win 3 in-a-row if KD decides not to join GSW [Does he join them after 2016 if OKC beats GSW and then lose to the Cavaliers?]. So, Kyrie was definitely capable of being the 2nd best player on one of the best 3-year post-season runs in NBA History. That alone is extremely valuable.

On the contrary, he just doesn't do a lot outside of score and he isn't putting a ton of pressure on the rim as a primary or secondary creator. His "longevity" isn't all that great, he has been a large part of the failure on multiple high-level teams [2018 and 2019 Boston plus 2021 and 2022 Brooklyn]. He has had some major off-court aspects that have tarnished him [gotten him suspended]. But players love him and his talent.

I agree with most people here, I do prefer, in a vacuum, the careers of Conley Jr, Lowry and Jrue to Kyrie, but also acknowledge that Kyrie's peak season(s) were filled with incredible scoring resiliency and difficulty and scaled well against higher-level defensive teams, but also note that these were partially due to sharing the floor with Luka Doncic and LeBron James.

[Pelly24]

What “stats” prefer Kyrie as a rule other than scoring volume? Literally no one is disputing that Kyrie is a better scorer. That is established. However, continually repeating that he is a better scorer is not an argument why he should be considered better overall. Is Kyrie making more playoffs in Jrue’s place on the Pelicans? Assuming similar health, I do not think so, no. Is Kyrie winning that 2022 Bucks series? I do not think so, no. Jrue does not have a real capacity to put up scoring performances like Kyrie did against the Warriors and Timberwolves… but Kyrie has no hope of shutting down opposing all-NBA guards like Jrue did against the Blazers and Suns. You know there is more to player assessment than scoring ability, so why is scoring all you can offer in defence of Kyrie?

It's not all I can offer. I had typed up a big thing, but I'll just keep it simple. As a No. 2 option in the playoffs, Jrue has never proven anything; Kyrie's won a championship and been to a finals as a major contributor. As a No. 1 option, Jrue has never led a team to the playoffs; Kyrie has. Kyrie has better career on/off numbers. He always scores above league average efficiency. He rates as a neutral defender, which when paired with offensive ability that easily dwarfs Jrue Holiday's, makes him a more impactul player. Kyrie has played in a multitude of teams and situations, coaches and rosters, and he's made all-nba teams in all of them, and he's always discussed by even the harshest critics for his amazing play that always leads to his teams having a better net rating when he's on the court; Jrue has bunches of years where he's completely forgotten about and not an all-nba contender because he's simply not as consistent, and if he's your second best player, even with Anthony Davis as your best player, you might not make the playoffs.

Is Kyrie making the playoffs with Anthony Davis on his team? I would think so. He made the playoffs pretty easily with Al Hereford and the Celtics, though that's a better run organization. Kyrie's also got the ability to win close games he might not win otherwise because of team construction because he can take over in the clutch. Jrue can't.

Idk. He's done more as a No. 1 option and as a No. 2 option. Scored more points more efficiently. better advanced stats. It's actually harder to find things Jrue *has* done better outside of defense.he's just a worse player in a vacuum.

[Pelly24]

all that said, because of the volatility and stuff, I can understand criticism, but basically all the impact stats and individual outcomes say Kyrie has been a better player when he's; been on the court than these guys. He did no less as a first option, and he did much more as a second option. We can say he played with all t9me great players, but that's a cop out, because every team that wins a chip has to have an all-time great player.

[AEnigma]

What “stats” prefer Kyrie as a rule other than scoring volume? Literally no one is disputing that Kyrie is a better scorer. That is established. However, continually repeating that he is a better scorer is not an argument why he should be considered better overall. Is Kyrie making more playoffs in Jrue’s place on the Pelicans? Assuming similar health, I do not think so, no. Is Kyrie winning that 2022 Bucks series? I do not think so, no. Jrue does not have a real capacity to put up scoring performances like Kyrie did against the Warriors and Timberwolves… but Kyrie has no hope of shutting down opposing all-NBA guards like Jrue did against the Blazers and Suns. You know there is more to player assessment than scoring ability, so why is scoring all you can offer in defence of Kyrie?

It's not all I can offer. I had typed up a big thing, but I'll just keep it simple. As a No. 2 option in the playoffs, Jrue has never proven anything; Kyrie's won a championship and been to a finals as a major contributor.

“No. x option” is a scoring framework. While acknowledging it is not definite one way or the other, plenty would argue Jrue was the second-best player on the 2021 Bucks.

As a No. 1 option, Jrue has never led a team to the playoffs; Kyrie has.

Again a scoring argument. Is it clear he was the best player on that team? Why did they do worse that year than they had the prior two years without Kyrie? Considering how terribly Kyrie scored in the postseason, why would Jrue do any worse?

Kyrie has better career on/off numbers.

… No?

He rates as a neutral defender,

According to what. I think he can sometimes be a neutral or positive defender. Most of the time I think he is a negative, albeit not as much of a negative as many other small scoring guards.

which when paired with offensive ability that easily dwarfs Jrue Holiday's, makes him a more impactul player.

Judging by the on/off error, I do not think you have really delved into their “impact”.

Kyrie has played in a multitude of teams and situations, coaches and rosters, and he's made all-nba teams in all of them,

Which I would generally ascribe to scoring biases.

and he's always discussed by even the harshest critics for his amazing play

Which is aesthetic.

that always leads to his teams having a better net rating when he's on the court;

And that is not true, maybe even more true, for Jrue?

Jrue has bunches of years where he's completely forgotten about and not an all-nba contender because he's simply not as consistent,

Not a consistent scorer, no.

and if he's your second best player, even with Anthony Davis as your best player, you might not make the playoffs.

Is Kyrie making the playoffs with Anthony Davis on his team? I would think so. He made the playoffs pretty easily with Al Hereford and the Celtics, though that's a better run organization.

… He swapped in for a worse player on a conference finals team that also drafted the best player in the class that year, what are you talking about.

Kyrie's also got the ability to win close games he might not win otherwise because of team construction because he can take over in the clutch. Jrue can't.

Do clutch defensive plays like in the 2021 Finals not count?

[Pelly24]

idk man. This is crazy lol. Like, sometimes the career accolades don't lie. He's made three all-nba teams and had it not been for injuries and his own stupidity, and even just journalist bias, he would have made 5 or 6 all-nba teams. He scores at the rate of someone who will one day have 25k points, even if it's looking more like he'll have 22k or so. He'll probably have 4k rebounds and 5k assists. He averages like 24/5/6 on close to 50/40/90 splits. He was a gold medalist at the olympics and was the FIBA MVP on a team with Curry, Harden and AD. He's not a great No. 1 option, but at least he's done it. Yes, he was the best player on the Celtics, it wasn't Tatum or brown. He had a winning record with horrford, who was also a top 25ish player that year. He beat a 73-9 team to overcome a 3-1 lead. He's in the finals now, they beat the clippers and he was the best player, they beat the Wolves and he easily outplayed KAT, all of their guards, and that defense is elite. It just feels like ppl are rewarding these guys for some supposed winning traits, but those winning traits didn't help them achieve anymore than Kyrie did by himself, and in fact, they actually usually accomplished *less*. And then in tertiary roles, they were also less valuable. It might have been close between Jrue and Middleton for second best player on the championship bucks team, but with Kyrie, he was by far the second best player on his teams with LeBron and Luka. Like, if Kyrie didn't play well in those runs for even a game, they were going to lose. It's easier to focus on defense when you're allowed to just average 17 ppg on 45 TS%.

[Cavsfansince84]

To me there is a big difference between Kyrie the player and Kyrie the leader. Kyrie has accomplish very little as the true leader/#1 on any team he's ever been on. So on that basis there's quite a few pgs I'd take ahead of him if we are just drafting them out of hs or college. Which is on top of all the games/playoffs he's missed due to injury or times he took time off for his own reasons. He also gives very inconsistent effort on defense and has trouble balancing his shot volume with running an offense. I think there's roughly 15-20+ I'd take ahead of him.

[picko]

Far too many for me to put together a list.

When Kyrie is at his best, there is perhaps no player in the league I'd like to watch more. The range of skills and shot-making is extraordinary.

But he's also an often injured head-case who can torpedo your team's chances on whim. He's not a leader, he's overly emotional and he often needs to be managed. There are players who are less talented than Kyrie who I'd take simply because I know I can rely on them. Guys like Billups or Lowry or Parker or Conley or Holiday.

[SpreeS]

What “stats” prefer Kyrie as a rule other than scoring volume? Literally no one is disputing that Kyrie is a better scorer. That is established. However, continually repeating that he is a better scorer is not an argument why he should be considered better overall. Is Kyrie making more playoffs in Jrue’s place on the Pelicans? Assuming similar health, I do not think so, no. Is Kyrie winning that 2022 Bucks series? I do not think so, no. Jrue does not have a real capacity to put up scoring performances like Kyrie did against the Warriors and Timberwolves… but Kyrie has no hope of shutting down opposing all-NBA guards like Jrue did against the Blazers and Suns. You know there is more to player assessment than scoring ability, so why is scoring all you can offer in defence of Kyrie?

It's not all I can offer. I had typed up a big thing, but I'll just keep it simple. As a No. 2 option in the playoffs, Jrue has never proven anything; Kyrie's won a championship and been to a finals as a major contributor. As a No. 1 option, Jrue has never led a team to the playoffs; Kyrie has. Kyrie has better career on/off numbers. He always scores above league average efficiency. He rates as a neutral defender, which when paired with offensive ability that easily dwarfs Jrue Holiday's, makes him a more impactul player. Kyrie has played in a multitude of teams and situations, coaches and rosters, and he's made all-nba teams in all of them, and he's always discussed by even the harshest critics for his amazing play that always leads to his teams having a better net rating when he's on the court; Jrue has bunches of years where he's completely forgotten about and not an all-nba contender because he's simply not as consistent, and if he's your second best player, even with Anthony Davis as your best player, you might not make the playoffs.

Is Kyrie making the playoffs with Anthony Davis on his team? I would think so. He made the playoffs pretty easily with Al Hereford and the Celtics, though that's a better run organization. Kyrie's also got the ability to win close games he might not win otherwise because of team construction because he can take over in the clutch. Jrue can't.

Idk. He's done more as a No. 1 option and as a No. 2 option. Scored more points more efficiently. better advanced stats. It's actually harder to find things Jrue *has* done better outside of defense.he's just a worse player in a vacuum.

Do you write just to write?

On/Off numbers. Irving on/off numbers looks the worst from this group

Jrue RS +6.5 PS +7.9
Conley RS +5.2 PS +8.6
Lowry RS +3.6 PS +9.8
Irving RS +3.7 PS +6.9

Now about lead team to PO. What team did he lead to PO? I hope do you mean only BOS, but these numbers look awful for Kyrie

Before Irving 2017 RS 53W PO CF (Thomas)
With Irving 2018 RS 55W PO CF (Irving didnt play in PO)
With Irving 2019 RS 49W PO 2nd (Irving was tragedy with .488TS in PO)
After Irving 2020 RS 57W PO CF (Kemba)

Lebron lead Cavs to the Finals with him (2018) or w/o him (2019)
Doncic lead Mavs to CF w/o Irving two years ago

Jrue lead two times PHI in PO and was thier leader (1a/1b). Davis missed PO with Lebron and lost two times in 1st PO rnd. I dont think that Kyrie/Davis combo would play any better.