Main Differences between MJ & Kobe: Longer thread

[rebirthoftheM]

Though both are legends, and Kobe being my favourite player of all time, we all know that MJ was a superior player to Kobe. This is beyond dispute with my fellow Kobe-stans still in denial needing to move on.

But what were the key differences between the two ? How did these differences impact their games? Rarely seen it analysed in-depth.

Having watched both extensivsly, I want to touch on the key differences here. Know it's long but please read & add to it and/or provide comments. Hope it's informative.

Difference #1: MJ's superior physical qualities, accentuated by era, competition & team structure.

Prime MJ was undoubtedly a more blessed physical specimen than Kobe. More explosive 1st step. Higher leap. Bigger hands. Superior In-air contortion abilities. And on and on.

Peak athletic Kobe, which only lasted briefly could never touch MJ & to be frank, post '05 Kobe was generally moving like late-Chicago MJ with even less lift on his fadeways & jumpshots with an arguably inferior 1st step.

MJ's superior physical qualities allowed him to get cleaner looks on his shots & mitigate the ability of teams to collapse on him when attacking. And combined with his elite skill, he ate. And ate he did on a volume + efficiency never seen before.

Kobe conversely had to rely more on slower, skillful craftiness involving complex dribbling moves, fakes, jabs etc to get cleaner looks & even then he could never get separation like MJ, which relatively hampered him. Watch the game tape & you will see their lift & separation was night & day.

And unlike say Curry or even Luka, Kobe was not a superhuman shooter so the lack of separation hampered him. He hit many tough shots but both his volume & efficiency suffered due to this.

This was accentuated by 3 factors:

First is the zone, generally illegal in MJ's time but legal in Kobe's era. The zone had the effect of clogging lanes for Kobe, and when combined with his slower pace of attack, partly rooted in his physical limitations, his ability to productively attack defenses was hindered due to collapsing defenses. As a result, he relied more on tougher long jumpers with the aforementioned inferior separation. Watch longer game tape of prime Kobe & MJ this will become evident.

Second is competition. Kobe faced longer, bigger, superior athletes than MJ. And because of Kobe's specific physical limitations, this hurt his ability to get cleaner separation from them relative to MJ. MJ's atrocious scoring efficiency in 02 & 03 will give you some insight on Kobe's condition.

Third is different team structures. The Lakers unlike Chicago were not offensively designed to cater to Kobe's physical qualities. When MJ's physical decline began, Chicago put him more in the low post & generally closer to the rim with spacing rather than 30 feet out. And given he still had quality lift, he continued to eat, though it must added his physical decline made life more difficult for him.

Prime Kobe (that is post '00 but especially 06-10) even with physical limitations as the data shows was dynamite in the pinch-post & low post, both as a scorer and playmaker. Big reason for this is that he did not have to attack defenses from 30 feet against the zone & could punish defenses with his passes out on double teams. Stopping Kobe's impact '15 out was a total nightmare.

However he was never fully utilised from these positions like late-MJ because the Lakers needed him to be a perimeter playmaker due to team limitations (e.g. the Odom 'Pippen' experiment in 05-06 failed & Lakers lacked real 1's). And in the Shaq years, the space wasn't there for both he & Shaq, with the focus on creating spacing for Shaq + Kobe's jumpshot during these years being not as refined, limiting Kobe's attack areas.

Also, during his absolute offensive peak (06 & 07) the Laker spacing threat was poor so teams would often cheat off the player attempting to pass off to Kobe in the pinch post/post, either making it more difficult for Kobe to attack or sometimes forcing him to come out to get the ball from 30 feet (compounded by his impatience - see later). He still ate overall of course but he was nonetheless hampered by these conditions.

(Kobe also had a higher, odd variance in the arch of his jumpshots year-in-year out & suffered a slew of injuries & underwent surgies, all of which hampered his offense).

All of these factors hurt Kobe's scoring volume & efficiency output relative to MJ.

Difference #2: MJ's superior basketball mind.

MJ played a smarter, more measured game than Kobe. Relative to Kobe, he was usually under control, playing within his limitations & patiently reading defenses with view of attacking them. His speed of attack was quicker & more intentional. His game was more natural & less scripted, based more on a read-react approach to the game where he more effortlessly combined scoring & basic playmaking out of double deams & drives.

Kobe on the other hand believed he had no shooting limitations & so every shot was good for him. He had a more of a tendency to force the issue when openings were not there & had a more impatient approach to the game e.g. sometimes rather than jostling for better position in a 2-man game, he had the increased tendency to just come out to get the ball from 30 feet. He also was slower in attack & would eat up possessions, allowing teams to better key in on him.

He also had more of a tendency to get into tunnel-vision 'modes' where he'd go one quarter just playmaking & the next just shooting (almost on script), which impacted his own flow (Kobe suffered from more cold stretches than MJ) and his team's flow. More scripted than MJ's more superior read-react approach. This improved during the Gasol years but he never fully resolved it.

Part of this had to do with MJ being properly taught in college & being more open to coaching but a bigger reason I see is just natural differences in their basketball minds. Kobe perhaps intellectually knew the game better than MJ but his ability to apply said knowledge to best effect was inferior.

The consequences of this is that once again, is that it contributed to MJ having the edge in both scoring volume & efficiency, made him more consistent as a player & made his teams more stable in play over the course of their primes.

Difference #3: MJ's superior defense.

This goes without saying. MJ was the better, more consistent defender with the biggest gap being in team-D. MJ's superior physical qualities & better motor helped him in playing the lanes & lunging for weakside blocks. His reaction speed was also quicker, which allowed him to pounce better. Both gambled yes, but MJ was better at it.

Both were good 1 on 1 defenders when keyed in with similar limitations, though to my eyes MJ was more consistent. Haven't seen much on MJ here but Kobe had a tendency to overplay his opposition & had some issues in the p & r (and in the post when he was younger, though MJ had issues here too).

MJ also was just less lazy as Kobe had a bigger tendency to aimlessly zone off shooters & lazily chase shooters, though Kobe would improve on this in pressure situations & the playoffs. To my eyes, it appears Kobe had bigger motor issues than MJ & prioritised self-preservation for key moments.

Neither were world-beaters defensively impact-wise, (MJ winning DPOY & a good chunk of Kobe's All-D 1st teams were laughable) which is unsurprising given they were both guards. But MJ was simply better on D for the reasons outlined & was never a liability as Kobe was sometimes.

Difference #4: Kobe's superior playmaking & ball handling.

Might suprise some that I say Kobe was a superior playmaker given the tunnel-vision mode issue i raised earlier & MJ's more gaudy assist numbers exemplified in '89 & the '91 finals outing.

However even with this in mind, Kobe has MJ beat.

MJ's playmaking consisted mostly of basic passes out from double teams, drive and dumps & sometimes drives-swing out to shooters. But he was never a quality floor general & when he attempted to be one, he'd generate more gaudy assist numbers but his team's offense would generally be limited. It was when Pippen took this over & MJ's assists ironically fell that Chicago's offense flew.

Kobe could do all that MJ could on playmaking at an arguably higher level (e.g. more complex interior dishes), however he could also run the p & r fairly well with very crafty & sneaky passes to boot & hit cutters, run quality 2-man and 3-man game better (Kobe-Gasol-Odom 3-man game was a thing of beauty). His ability to hit interior bigs in the right areas & times was ace (Shaq has spoken on this previously).

His superior shooting *threat* also made him a superior spacing unit in a 2-man game, making life for bigs like Gasol & Odom easier. He was always the floor general for the Lakers & could generate quality offenses while being so, something MJ did not generally show.

Kobe was also the superior ball handler, unsurprising given he came after MJ & had to develop it more given his physical limitations. MJ relied more on quick 1 step blow by moves while Kobe methodically broke down defenders with his superior handles. Both protected the ball well.

This superiority in ball handling I contend actually contributed to Kobe being a better playmaker as it allowed him to be a more diverse playmaker, mesh with diverse talent better, play the passing angles better, with his better off hand opening angles that would otherwise not be there. The way Kobe worked with Gasol '08 right off the bat speaks loudly to me. Kobe's playmaking bag was more valuable to team offenses than MJ's bag.

I think the early years with PJ-Shaq & close work with Tex Winter really shaped Kobe here. Notwithstanding his limitations, he became a quality floor general as a 2-guard and it is the most underrated aspect of his game alongside his playoff resilliency.

[LakerLegend]

I think you’re greatly exaggerating any difference in athleticism. Particularly pre Kobe’s
knee surgeries which had like 3 major ones that we know of. My observations basically mirror Phil’s: the biggest differences between them are that Jordan had bigger hands, he was stronger (Kobe was
more flexible), Jordan had better shot selection while Kobe had better actual basketball skills (ball handling, long range shooting).

[LakerLegend]

I should add, which Kobe himself mentioned an interview from like 99 that’s somewhere on YouTube that Jordan played more offball.

[One_and_Done]

I mean, Jordan was better than Kobe, though both have become quite overrated.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think you’re greatly exaggerating any difference in athleticism. Particularly pre Kobe’s
knee surgeries which had like 3 major ones that we know of. My observations basically mirror Phil’s: the biggest differences between them are that Jordan had bigger hands, he was stronger (Kobe was
more flexible), Jordan had better shot selection while Kobe had better actual basketball skills (ball handling, long range shooting).

Kobe was a better shooter from 18-25 ft but the problem is that even for guys who are good from that range it's a rather ineffective way to get 2 pts. Kobe also thought he was a much better 3 pt shooter than he actually was which led to a lot of 1-7 type games from behind the arc that MJ just didn't have because he usually took only 2-3 per game. I also think MJ had much better natural touch from within 10 ft(which come through in their post games) and could finish in a lot diverse ways compared to Kobe so he was just an all around more effective scorer and the gap only gets bigger in the ps. I mean Kobe is one of the better all around scorers of all time but MJ is the apex of wing scoring.

[trex_8063]

I applaud the thought/effort that went into composing the OP. I agree with a fair bit of it, too, though am going to comment on a couple of points......

Difference #1: MJ's superior physical qualities, accentuated by era, competition & team structure.

Prime MJ was undoubtedly a more blessed physical specimen than Kobe. More explosive 1st step. Higher leap. Bigger hands. Superior In-air contortion abilities. And on and on.

I agree with all of the above [the margins may not be huge, but they are there] with the possible exception of "superior in-air contortion abilities". Kobe had remarkable ability in this regard as well; not sure if I can agree on a notable edge to Jordan there.

However, if we include also on-ground contortion abilities, maybe I can agree to a small edge for Jordan. Aside from what he did in the air, Jordan was just "slippery" on the drive.
You know that scene in How the Grinch Stole Christmas (original animated version from the late 60s), where the Grinch is slithering along the ground between the Christmas presents as he robs one Who house?......that's sometimes how Jordan seemed to me, slithering past defenders to get near the rim. Seems like it required a certain degree of graceful contortion (on the ground).

MJ's superior physical qualities allowed him to get cleaner looks on his shots & mitigate the ability of teams to collapse on him when attacking. And combined with his elite skill, he ate. And ate he did on a volume + efficiency never seen before.

Kobe conversely had to rely more on slower, skillful craftiness involving complex dribbling moves, fakes, jabs etc to get cleaner looks & even then he could never get separation like MJ, which relatively hampered him. Watch the game tape & you will see their lift & separation was night & day.

I would push back slightly on the notion that Kobe "had to" rely on slower moves/fakes/jabs [which failed to achieve the separation that Jordan sometimes had]. Certainly, he DID rely on the things you describe, beginning his moves much more slowly/methodically......but I don't think he had to do that.
This is more or less runs right into the "poor shot selection" criticism he sustains, which I'll comment more on below. Sometimes the difficult spots he ended up in were his own doing (by NOT being more immediately decisive, etc).

First is the zone, generally illegal in MJ's time but legal in Kobe's era. The zone had the effect of clogging lanes for Kobe, and when combined with his slower pace of attack, partly rooted in his physical limitations, his ability to productively attack defenses was hindered due to collapsing defenses. As a result, he relied more on tougher long jumpers with the aforementioned inferior separation. Watch longer game tape of prime Kobe & MJ this will become evident.

otoh, Kobe enjoyed improved 3pt spacing in his era. It's not uncommon in watching MJ's games (at least 1st 3peat and earlier) and see defenders giving opponents a 3-5 FOOT cushion on the perimeter. Unless you were guarding Rajon Rondo, that was something you just would not see in Kobe's era.

Second is competition. Kobe faced longer, bigger, superior athletes than MJ. And because of Kobe's specific physical limitations, this hurt his ability to get cleaner separation from them relative to MJ. MJ's atrocious scoring efficiency in 02 & 03 will give you some insight on Kobe's condition.

True to a degree, though I think you probably overstate (I mean they actually have four seasons overlapping in their respective careers). And to some degree the "superior athletes" are the result of superior resources, facilities, and training methods (which MJ would have had better access to if his career had come along a little later [though I guess we can't know for sure if he would have taken advantage of these]).

Difference #2: MJ's superior basketball mind.

MJ played a smarter, more measured game than Kobe. Relative to Kobe, he was usually under control, playing within his limitations & patiently reading defenses with view of attacking them. His speed of attack was quicker & more intentional. His game was more natural & less scripted, based more on a read-react approach to the game where he more effortlessly combined scoring & basic playmaking out of double deams & drives.

Kobe on the other hand believed he had no shooting limitations & so every shot was good for him. He had a more of a tendency to force the issue when openings were not there & had a more impatient approach to the game e.g. sometimes rather than jostling for better position in a 2-man game, he had the increased tendency to just come out to get the ball from 30 feet. He also was slower in attack & would eat up possessions, allowing teams to better key in on him.

This I agree with fairly strongly, and think it is arguably the single-biggest separator between the two of them [at least as scorers]. Jordan (at least prior to 2nd 3peat, where he was working more in the post) would often catch the ball and immediately make a move, before the defense gets set.

With Kobe, otoh, would often get the ball and take a lengthy pause as he surveyed the court (defense gets nice and set), and then he would seek to break that down off the dribble. It's [generally] a less efficacious means to go about scoring, imo.

fwiw, Larry Bird and Dan Issel were also both very quickly decisive with the ball, and I think is part of what made them such effective scorers despite relatively limited athleticism.

He also had more of a tendency to get into tunnel-vision 'modes' where he'd go one quarter just playmaking & the next just shooting (almost on script), which impacted his own flow (Kobe suffered from more cold stretches than MJ) and his team's flow. More scripted than MJ's more superior read-react approach. This improved during the Gasol years but he never fully resolved it.

The other thing I noted (often with consternation) was that Kobe almost seemed to hunt more difficult shots deliberately. Maybe it was a flaw in how he read the court, read the defense; but sometimes he would pass on a better shot in order to force a WORSE shot. For example, he'd maybe have his man a half-step beat (to where he could try to barrel on to the hoop, maybe get fouled; or pull-up for a CLEAN mid-range while his defender is still recovering), only to stop, pick up his dribble and wait for the defender to recover him, then pump-fake (once, twice, maybe a third time), and then try to pull up from that dead-stop with the defender (who has long-since fully recovered him) right in his grill.

Occasionally just terrible shots like that, which quite simply were NOT forced upon him by the defense.

Difference #3: MJ's superior defense.

This goes without saying. MJ was the better, more consistent defender with the biggest gap being in team-D. MJ's superior physical qualities & better motor helped him in playing the lanes & lunging for weakside blocks. His reaction speed was also quicker, which allowed him to pounce better. Both gambled yes, but MJ was better at it.

Both were good 1 on 1 defenders when keyed in with similar limitations, though to my eyes MJ was more consistent. Haven't seen much on MJ here but Kobe had a tendency to overplay his opposition & had some issues in the p & r (and in the post when he was younger, though MJ had issues here too).

MJ also was just less lazy as Kobe had a bigger tendency to aimlessly zone off shooters & lazily chase shooters, though Kobe would improve on this in pressure situations & the playoffs. To my eyes, it appears Kobe had bigger motor issues than MJ & prioritised self-preservation for key moments.

I mean, I think BOTH of them prioritised self-preservation to a degree (natural/common for offensive centerpieces), at least Jordan did during later seasons. But I generally agree with the rest of the above. EDIT: Did Jordan have the slightly longer wingspan, too? I think he possibly did (kinda looks like it to me), though I'm not sure [don't know their actual measurements].

Difference #4: Kobe's superior playmaking & ball handling.

I don't really disagree, I guess; though I think Jordan was arguably the more willing passer over the wholes of their careers. Sometimes the "Mamba Mentality" was that "I gotta get it done myself" [to a fault]. Sometimes (like you said above: tunnel vision).

[Cavsfansince84]

The difference to me in their playmaking is largely that when MJ got into the paint he was usually looking to finish unless he had a big wide open for a dunk. Kobe was more willing and better at passing once he got into the paint imo. He was kind of a virtuoso at that.

[rebirthoftheM]

I think you’re greatly exaggerating any difference in athleticism. Particularly pre Kobe’s
knee surgeries which had like 3 major ones that we know of. My observations basically mirror Phil’s: the biggest differences between them are that Jordan had bigger hands, he was stronger (Kobe was
more flexible), Jordan had better shot selection while Kobe had better actual basketball skills (ball handling, long range shooting).

I should have added that my comments on Kobe's athleticism was in relation to MJ's athleticism.

But even in general, watch post '05-06 Kobe in stand still mode attacking the defenses vs MJ. Kobe couldn't explode like MJ and relied more on craftiness/slitherness to break down defenses.

And many of the tough shots you see from Kobe in the era were tough because Kobe couldn't get separation in cleaner looks.

'07 he struggled in this fashion due to recovery from knee surgey & weight.

'08 saw a resurgence in his explosion but still overall below '05-06. And that year his jumper was strangely flat.

09 & 10 was overall below all of this, notwithstanding big moments. Below late-Chicago MJ overall imo.

2 examples from post '06: See Kobe's 49 point outing vs Nuggets in '08. And 1 later in the game vs Kleiza. Look at how he had to break him down. Really emphasises my point.

Or And 1 vs Pietrus in Game 1 '09 Finals. Look at the struggle & in the end he just wills it in.

& overall just compare the lift & separation on Kobe & MJ's fadeways. Clear to me they night & day.

And even pre 05-06 Kobe's 1st step was not on MJ's level or even Wade. He was more the slithery crafty type. Could explode for a dunk but that did not overall reflect his athletic qualities at the time imo.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jordan was better at everything except outside shooting.

[rebirthoftheM]

I applaud the thought/effort that went into composing the OP. I agree with a fair bit of it, too, though am going to comment on a couple of points......


I agree with all of the above [the margins may not be huge, but they are there] with the possible exception of "superior in-air contortion abilities". Kobe had remarkable ability in this regard as well; not sure if I can agree on a notable edge to Jordan there.

However, if we include also on-ground contortion abilities, maybe I can agree to a small edge for Jordan. Aside from what he did in the air, Jordan was just "slippery" on the drive.
You know that scene in How the Grinch Stole Christmas (original animated version from the late 60s), where the Grinch is slithering along the ground between the Christmas presents as he robs one Who house?......that's sometimes how Jordan seemed to me, slithering past defenders to get near the rim. Seems like it required a certain degree of graceful contortion (on the ground).


I would push back slightly on the notion that Kobe "had to" rely on slower moves/fakes/jabs [which failed to achieve the separation that Jordan sometimes had]. Certainly, he DID rely on the things you describe, beginning his moves much more slowly/methodically......but I don't think he had to do that.
This is more or less runs right into the "poor shot selection" criticism he sustains, which I'll comment more on below. Sometimes the difficult spots he ended up in were his own doing (by NOT being more immediately decisive, etc).

True to a degree, though I think you probably overstate (I mean they actually have four seasons overlapping in their respective careers). And to some degree the "superior athletes" are the result of superior resources, facilities, and training methods (which MJ would have had better access to if his career had come along a little later [though I guess we can't know for sure if he would have taken advantage of these]).




This I agree with fairly strongly, and think it is arguably the single-biggest separator between the two of them [at least as scorers]. Jordan (at least prior to 2nd 3peat, where he was working more in the post) would often catch the ball and immediately make a move, before the defense gets set.

With Kobe, otoh, would often get the ball and take a lengthy pause as he surveyed the court (defense gets nice and set), and then he would seek to break that down off the dribble. It's [generally] a less efficacious means to go about scoring, imo.

fwiw, Larry Bird and Dan Issel were also both very quickly decisive with the ball, and I think is part of what made them such effective scorers despite relatively limited athleticism.

The other thing I noted (often with consternation) was that Kobe almost seemed to hunt more difficult shots deliberately. Maybe it was a flaw in how he read the court, read the defense; but sometimes he would pass on a better shot in order to force a WORSE shot. For example, he'd maybe have his man a half-step beat (to where he could try to barrel on to the hoop, maybe get fouled; or pull-up for a CLEAN mid-range while his defender is still recovering), only to stop, pick up his dribble and wait for the defender to recover him, then pump-fake (once, twice, maybe a third time), and then try to pull up from that dead-stop with the defender (who has long-since fully recovered him) right in his grill.

Occasionally just terrible shots like that, which quite simply were NOT forced upon him by the defense.


I mean, I think BOTH of them prioritised self-preservation to a degree (natural/common for offensive centerpieces), at least Jordan did during later seasons. But I generally agree with the rest of the above. EDIT: Did Jordan have the slightly longer wingspan, too? I think he possibly did (kinda looks like it to me), though I'm not sure [don't know their actual measurements].

I don't really disagree, I guess; though I think Jordan was arguably the more willing passer over the wholes of their careers. Sometimes the "Mamba Mentality" was that "I gotta get it done myself" [to a fault]. Sometimes (like you said above: tunnel vision).

Thanks for your detailed comments & much food for thought. Some responses.

1) With regards to in-air contortion, I wasn't clear enough but I had both body & ball contortion focused on creating the best shot against shot blockers & interior defenders.

We all know MJ was a superior interior finisher. Part of this has to do with MJ's superior ability to explode to the rim before a challenge could best realise but even against proper contests, my read is MJ was the better finisher than Kobe. And to my eyes it has to do with superior leaping & bigger hands that allowed him to contort the ball & his body together for a more effective shot. A more guided process almost.

Kobe was hella acrobatic in his prime for sure as you noted & was a contortion artist who was quite effective yet to my eyes MJ was still the better finisher when contorting in-air. A point to note too is that to my eyes Kobe was rejected more. And I think this all has *partly* to do with the factors I mentioned.

It's the effectiveness of the in-air contortion work I had in mine rather than aesthetics. Both quality at it but MJ has Kobe beat imo.

And agreed re on-ground contortion.

2) Agreed that Kobe did not necessisarily have to take all the shots he took where he was finding it difficult to get cleaner separation. Should of taken less of them and that goes to poor decision making & yes poor coaching which I touched upon (should also be noted, the threat of Kobe hitting from anywhere opened up space & lanes for others).

And let me clarify here, Kobe did get a fair share of good looks that he converted well. Do not want to give impression that every shot he took was tough. To my eyes however, he took more of them than most players in the league.

I was more explaining the story behind said difficult shots i.e. why he couldn't get separation/cleaner looks on those shots in the way MJ could. Rarely analysed.

And to my eyes it was not often the case for a lack of trying. Yes, sometimes he'd impatiently rush into a contested long 2 but more often than this imo (particularly as he got older) he'd try to to get separation via a set of moves but it still led to a somewhat difficult shot as he couldn't shrug off his defenders as easily from further out.

The surveying you mention *partly* imo has to do with knowledge that he lacked that first step to blow by that MJ did. And knowledge of the upcoming collapse in the zone, which due to Kobe's physically slower ability to break down his defender (compared to MJ) would result in defenses collapsing on him better in a way prime MJ did not faxe. Kobe's considerations were different to MJ. He had to calculate more in such situatioms.

To my eyes, and unlike your view, I did not see Kobe often taking tough shots after he had already created better space but elected to draw back & go toe to to with a defender (would love to see examples). More often than not, I'd see Kobe pounce on such openings, most apparent against weaker or smaller defenders. Peak Kobe tended to struggle more against those rugged eastern conference teams who had defenders who could match up with him physically, smart enough on D & decent zone defense. And feast in alternative conditions. What changed was his comp.

The story behind those shots partly have to do with inferior decison making but also with the physical limitations I mentioned (and yes limited skill too, since a more superhuman shot ala Curry could have mitigated the effects). Pre '96 MJ for the reasons I shared did not have the same physical limitations & thus this conundrum faced by Kobe was not something he even had to entertain at the same level.

And when his physical state declined, the Bulls scheme put MJ in positions to make life easier (i.e. closer to the rim) for him in a way Kobe was not given at the same frequency. I'd point to the team structure point I made as instructive here. Evident that the Lakers sought to use prime Kobe very differently than what the Bulls did with late-Chicago MJ. And this had real impacts that must be part of the analysis.

When MJ's physical decline was absolute in Washington, he attempted to play his similar midrange way but was awful at it. Lift was gone. Inferior separation. Similar physical issues Kobe faced, just much worse. He just never encountered this issue in Chicago at the same level for all the reasons outlined earlier.

Regarding the zone, in my view this hampered Kobe due to his inferior 1st step that made him more vunerable to defenses collapsing & inabilty to get separation. I think he'd fair better in the illegal defense days. And Lakers only got quality spacing for him after his physical state had declined even more. '06 spacing was no good.

My overall point is, relative to MJ specifically, Kobe's shot selection issues were deeper than MJ simply being smarter in shot selection, though this was a meaningful factor of course. Even accounting for physical differences, Kobe simply took more poor shots & passed up better ones. But there are sveral factors at play when comparing the two here imo.

[DorianRo]

Both were of similar skill. Main difference, MJ slightly better at D and more efficient from the field and MJ had larger hands so he could do more with the ball, and a little bit more mental toughness/clutch ability. Other than that, they are basically the same player. MJ was just a better version of Kobe. Its not like a landslide or anything though

[Dr Positivity]

Most of it comes down to MJ being more athletic and he understood playing off the ball more.

[mikejames23]

All criticism aside, Kobe is probably 80-90% there. Needs to be more impressive with his numbers game, and needed to get better at handling situations vs teams like the Pistons. Otherwise, that's a pretty good imitation of MJ.

[McBubbles]

I hear that Kobe is a better ball handler than MJ so often that it's basically the law now, but can someone explain why they think this?

Kobe is an inferior passer, playmaker, scorer and shot creator with a worse turnover rate. If Kobe is a better ball handler then why don't his superior handles make him better at anything that are typically related to ball handling? Is he actually a better ball handler or does he cross people over more often? There's a difference. People regularly site KD as a better ball handler than people he has much worse handles than (Tmac, Magic, Lebron) simply because he crosses people over more often, so I'm wondering if this is similar.

Also Kobe isn't a comparable mid-range shooter to Michael Jordan, like at all. This is a fantasy created entirely by highlights and general vibes. Kobe at his absolute peak was still worse from mid-range than Wizards Jordan, let alone peak Jordan. The closest peer of MJ for the mid-range is Dirk.

[oaktownwarriors87]

I think you’re greatly exaggerating any difference in athleticism. Particularly pre Kobe’s
knee surgeries which had like 3 major ones that we know of. My observations basically mirror Phil’s: the biggest differences between them are that Jordan had bigger hands, he was stronger (Kobe was
more flexible), Jordan had better shot selection while Kobe had better actual basketball skills (ball handling, long range shooting).

I think Jordan was more athletic, but let's forget his unmatched hang time. The ball didn't matter to Jordan. His larger hands allowed him to move in ways that no one else could, which completely unlocked his already freakish physical abilities.

I'm pretty sure the only player in today's game with larger hands than Jordan is Boban.

I also don't agree with the ball handling. It's harder to take the ball from Jordan and he will have an easier time getting to his spot with the ball. Kobe may have been fancier, but that because he needed to work harder.

[LakerLegend]

I think you’re greatly exaggerating any difference in athleticism. Particularly pre Kobe’s
knee surgeries which had like 3 major ones that we know of. My observations basically mirror Phil’s: the biggest differences between them are that Jordan had bigger hands, he was stronger (Kobe was
more flexible), Jordan had better shot selection while Kobe had better actual basketball skills (ball handling, long range shooting).

I think Jordan was more athletic, but let's forget his unmatched hang time. The ball didn't matter to Jordan. His larger hands allowed him to move in ways that no one else could, which completely unlocked his already freakish physical abilities.

I'm pretty sure the only player in today's game with larger hands than Jordan is Boban.

I also don't agree with the ball handling. It's harder to take the ball from Jordan and he will have an easier time getting to his spot with the ball. Kobe may have been fancier, but that because he needed to work harder.

Jordan’s hangtime being an outlier is more a product of being able to hang onto the ball easier for longer because of his hands not innate athleticism. Which I think is what you’re saying. Regardless, Kobe has some freakish hang time layups which I’ll post later

[capfan33]

I hear that Kobe is a better ball handler than MJ so often that it's basically the law now, but can someone explain why they think this?

Kobe is an inferior passer, playmaker, scorer and shot creator with a worse turnover rate. If Kobe is a better ball handler then why don't his superior handles make him better at anything that are typically related to ball handling? Is he actually a better ball handler or does he cross people over more often? There's a difference. People regularly site KD as a better ball handler than people he has much worse handles than (Tmac, Magic, Lebron) simply because he crosses people over more often, so I'm wondering if this is similar.

Also Kobe isn't a comparable mid-range shooter to Michael Jordan, like at all. This is a fantasy created entirely by highlights and general vibes. Kobe at his absolute peak was still worse from mid-range than Wizards Jordan, let alone peak Jordan. The closest peer of MJ for the mid-range is Dirk.

If you watch Jordan his handle is relatively basic and loose at times. His handles were good enough to do what he needed to do on the court but it wasn't anything to write home about. Also a lot of people would disagree Kobe's an inferior passer as well.

[McBubbles]

I hear that Kobe is a better ball handler than MJ so often that it's basically the law now, but can someone explain why they think this?

Kobe is an inferior passer, playmaker, scorer and shot creator with a worse turnover rate. If Kobe is a better ball handler then why don't his superior handles make him better at anything that are typically related to ball handling? Is he actually a better ball handler or does he cross people over more often? There's a difference. People regularly site KD as a better ball handler than people he has much worse handles than (Tmac, Magic, Lebron) simply because he crosses people over more often, so I'm wondering if this is similar.

Also Kobe isn't a comparable mid-range shooter to Michael Jordan, like at all. This is a fantasy created entirely by highlights and general vibes. Kobe at his absolute peak was still worse from mid-range than Wizards Jordan, let alone peak Jordan. The closest peer of MJ for the mid-range is Dirk.

If you watch Jordan his handle is relatively basic and loose at times. His handles were good enough to do what he needed to do on the court but it wasn't anything to write home about. Also a lot of people would disagree Kobe's an inferior passer as well.

Basic isn't an indicator of quality though. Statements like that is where my concern for the evaluation of MJ's handle relative to Kobe's comes from.

MJ's handles were loose at times, compared to who? Kyrie Irving? MJ has one of the lowest turnover rates of all time for a lead playmaker. Furthermore, we have numbers that show how often someone loses the ball when passing isn't taken into account, and at Kobe's peak he nearly lost the ball twice as much as MJ, so calling MJ's handle loose compared to Kobe's is incorrect. He also lost the ball from bad passes more often than MJ...

And "what he needed to do on the court" was better than everything Kobe did on the court. Again, statements like this confuse me.

Having super long arms and stupidly massive hands improves your handle. Being able to get equal or superior results with less effort makes you better, not worse. Having to cross someone up multiple times to get past them doesn't mean you have a better handles, it means you have more dribble moves. Those aren't synonymous. Steph Curry has more dribble moves than Nash and yet Nash blows him away as a ball handler.

Everything you said has just confirmed my original suspicions about Kobe's handles being rated better than MJ's because of aesthetics

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[capfan33]

I hear that Kobe is a better ball handler than MJ so often that it's basically the law now, but can someone explain why they think this?

Kobe is an inferior passer, playmaker, scorer and shot creator with a worse turnover rate. If Kobe is a better ball handler then why don't his superior handles make him better at anything that are typically related to ball handling? Is he actually a better ball handler or does he cross people over more often? There's a difference. People regularly site KD as a better ball handler than people he has much worse handles than (Tmac, Magic, Lebron) simply because he crosses people over more often, so I'm wondering if this is similar.

Also Kobe isn't a comparable mid-range shooter to Michael Jordan, like at all. This is a fantasy created entirely by highlights and general vibes. Kobe at his absolute peak was still worse from mid-range than Wizards Jordan, let alone peak Jordan. The closest peer of MJ for the mid-range is Dirk.

If you watch Jordan his handle is relatively basic and loose at times. His handles were good enough to do what he needed to do on the court but it wasn't anything to write home about. Also a lot of people would disagree Kobe's an inferior passer as well.

Basic isn't an indicator of quality though. Statements like that is where my concern for the evaluation of MJ's handle relative to Kobe's comes from.

MJ's handles were loose at times, compared to who? Kyrie Irving? MJ has one of the lowest turnover rates of all time for a lead playmaker. Furthermore, we have numbers that show how often someone loses the ball when passing isn't taken into account, and at Kobe's peak he nearly lost the ball twice as much as MJ, so calling MJ's handle loose compared to Kobe's is incorrect. He also lost the ball from bad passes more often than MJ...

And "what he needed to do on the court" was better than everything Kobe did on the court. Again, statements like this confuse me.

Having super long arms and stupidly massive hands improves your handle. Being able to get equal or superior results with less effort makes you better, not worse. Having to cross someone up multiple times to get past them doesn't mean you have a better handles, it means you have more dribble moves. Those aren't synonymous. Steph Curry has more dribble moves than Nash and yet Nash blows him away as a ball handler.

Everything you said has just confirmed my original suspicions about Kobe's handles being rated better than MJ's because of aesthetics

I consider Magic's handles to be relatively basic and he's prob one of the 10 best ball-handlers ever. Hell even Lebron is not particularly fancy but he still has elite ball-handling skills much moreso than MJ. Jason Kidd is prob another decent example, even non-stars like a Lonzo Ball or Austin Reaves, not especially flashy I would say, but simply can rely on their handles (and not their athleticism/scoring threat) to get to where they want to go on the court. That's more along the lines of what I'm evaluating.

In MJ's case per his rep he did play off-ball quite a bit, much moreso than Kobe. He simply didn't have to dribble as much as other top-tier guys. If it wasn't pure catch and shoot it was quick one to two dribble hits a lot of the time where he wasn't really challenged to handle the ball that much. And later on he posted a lot more. I'm not saying he couldn't have worked on it and become elite or close to it but he simply didn't need to, especially as part of the triangle.

Moreover, his nuclear athleticism allowed him to beat his man in one move with 1-2 dribbles in a way few players ever have been able to, and in contrast to Kobe, he wasn't attacking from behind the 3 point line as often either. He's prob the greatest pullup shooter ever and could hang in the air to shoot reliably within the free throw line (also better than anyone else). As long as he could get the ball within the 3 point line, that's basically all he needed most of the time to get a clean shot off, 1-2 dribbles. He didn't need to run a pick and roll, cross-over, breakdown his defender, split double teams, handle in traffic, etc.

It's somewhat semantic, if you're purely judging players based on their handles being good enough for their function/role on the court, MJ is up there. But in an absolute sense if we were doing a skills challenge, there a lot of players I can think of I'd pick over him.