Starting to come around that KG really did have a very elite peak/prime

[ardee]

Admittedly, some of it was bias keeping me from recognizing this earlier because a lot of the pro-KG posters here also hated Kobe who remains my favorite player of all time....

But I've reread some of drza's old posts, and well, he summed it all up quite simply in one of them. This is the 2005 RPOY vote.

1) Kevin Garnett. He was the best player in the league entering the season, and he did nothing in '05 to dissuade me from that. He was the offensive focal point for his team in a way that few forwards have ever been, as only LeBron and Bird have surpassed both his scoring and assist numbers from '05 in a single season since 1980. He was also one of the best defensive players in the league as well as the rebound champ. Overall, he led a team of old, injured chuckers to one of the better offenses in the league and a respectable defense against the odds while carrying a team with a whole lot wrong with it to 44 wins. Since we're going chronologically backward in this project, Garnett in '05 is the first player we've encountered to lead the league in PER, Win Shares, and Wins Produced in the same season.

When you put it like that... the enormity of KG's impact in so many areas is very hard to ignore.

Yes, he wasn't an elite offensive anchor like a Kobe, a Shaq, or a Dirk, but he was still a very good one, which coupled with his defense (I don't believe he was GOAT caliber on that end, I prefer the rim protection of Russell, Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan, but he was still likely top 5-7 all time), makes for one hell of a player.

Not sure where I rank him yet, but I think his peak is likely top 10 caliber, and for ATL I can see him in the 9-12 range potentially.

His '03-'05 peak was honestly just absurd, and on top of that he also had great longevity (2012 was likely better than Duncan was in either 2013 or 2014 but doesn't get talked about nearly as much).

[Dutchball97]

His biggest obstacle in my opinion is very similar to Oscar and that's a relative lack of post-season games during his prime. While I have little doubt either of those guys would've done just fine, it's often hard to take them over similarly talented players who did get more chances in the post-season to prove themselves and took advantage of that.

[Special_Puppy]

Admittedly, some of it was bias keeping me from recognizing this earlier because a lot of the pro-KG posters here also hated Kobe who remains my favorite player of all time....

But I've reread some of drza's old posts, and well, he summed it all up quite simply in one of them. This is the 2005 RPOY vote.

1) Kevin Garnett. He was the best player in the league entering the season, and he did nothing in '05 to dissuade me from that. He was the offensive focal point for his team in a way that few forwards have ever been, as only LeBron and Bird have surpassed both his scoring and assist numbers from '05 in a single season since 1980. He was also one of the best defensive players in the league as well as the rebound champ. Overall, he led a team of old, injured chuckers to one of the better offenses in the league and a respectable defense against the odds while carrying a team with a whole lot wrong with it to 44 wins. Since we're going chronologically backward in this project, Garnett in '05 is the first player we've encountered to lead the league in PER, Win Shares, and Wins Produced in the same season.

When you put it like that... the enormity of KG's impact in so many areas is very hard to ignore.

Yes, he wasn't an elite offensive anchor like a Kobe, a Shaq, or a Dirk, but he was still a very good one, which coupled with his defense (I don't believe he was GOAT caliber on that end, I prefer the rim protection of Russell, Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan, but he was still likely top 5-7 all time), makes for one hell of a player.

Not sure where I rank him yet, but I think his peak is likely top 10 caliber, and for ATL I can see him in the 9-12 range potentially.

His '03-'05 peak was honestly just absurd, and on top of that he also had great longevity (2012 was likely better than Duncan was in either 2013 or 2014 but doesn't get talked about nearly as much).

I think offensive anchor is way too strong a word to use for Garnett, but his defensive impact was just insane. Arguably the best defender of the past 25 years

[Doctor MJ]

Admittedly, some of it was bias keeping me from recognizing this earlier because a lot of the pro-KG posters here also hated Kobe who remains my favorite player of all time....

But I've reread some of drza's old posts, and well, he summed it all up quite simply in one of them. This is the 2005 RPOY vote.

1) Kevin Garnett. He was the best player in the league entering the season, and he did nothing in '05 to dissuade me from that. He was the offensive focal point for his team in a way that few forwards have ever been, as only LeBron and Bird have surpassed both his scoring and assist numbers from '05 in a single season since 1980. He was also one of the best defensive players in the league as well as the rebound champ. Overall, he led a team of old, injured chuckers to one of the better offenses in the league and a respectable defense against the odds while carrying a team with a whole lot wrong with it to 44 wins. Since we're going chronologically backward in this project, Garnett in '05 is the first player we've encountered to lead the league in PER, Win Shares, and Wins Produced in the same season.

When you put it like that... the enormity of KG's impact in so many areas is very hard to ignore.

Yes, he wasn't an elite offensive anchor like a Kobe, a Shaq, or a Dirk, but he was still a very good one, which coupled with his defense (I don't believe he was GOAT caliber on that end, I prefer the rim protection of Russell, Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan, but he was still likely top 5-7 all time), makes for one hell of a player.

Not sure where I rank him yet, but I think his peak is likely top 10 caliber, and for ATL I can see him in the 9-12 range potentially.

His '03-'05 peak was honestly just absurd, and on top of that he also had great longevity (2012 was likely better than Duncan was in either 2013 or 2014 but doesn't get talked about nearly as much).

So let me say first and foremost:

Good on you for circling back around after all the contentiousness dies down and reconsidering what you were polarized against. I think this is what all of us need to do, and frankly it's what I did with Garnett as well.

During the RPOY project, I found drza and others arguments to be solid, but I didn't switch my vote in '07-08 to Garnett, continuing to side with Kobe, Paul & LeBron over him. Later on, after the project, I would change my mind and move Garnett to the top of that year.

Now what's funny here is that I've to this day never got on board with Garnett's '04-05 candidacy. Not that I eliminate him from consideration, but despite the best-in-league production, I'm skeptical about the impact that year. While I blame Cassell and especially Sprewell for killing the vibes in Minny that year, the fact remains that that team just didn't groove, and it's not a situation where it's all about Garnett's Off minutes. The whole year was an exercise in frustration.

[An Unbiased Fan]

His biggest obstacle in my opinion is very similar to Oscar and that's a relative lack of post-season games during his prime. While I have little doubt either of those guys would've done just fine, it's often hard to take them over similarly talented players who did get more chances in the post-season to prove themselves and took advantage of that.

KG was probably the best #2 guy ever playing as a #1 most of his career. A versatile defender, but not an anchor at the level of Russ, TD, DRob. A good offensive player, but not elite on that end, and it really showed in 4th quarters when the opposing defense focused on him.

He was a big box score stuffer though, which wlll get you the metrics to have people rate you high. I think filling box scores is overrated, to me how elite a player is at their "role" defines their greatness. And in that regard, KG has always come up a bit short outside of 2008 superteam, and even then they had all those game 7s, could have easily went wrong that season too.

[ardee]

Admittedly, some of it was bias keeping me from recognizing this earlier because a lot of the pro-KG posters here also hated Kobe who remains my favorite player of all time....

But I've reread some of drza's old posts, and well, he summed it all up quite simply in one of them. This is the 2005 RPOY vote.

1) Kevin Garnett. He was the best player in the league entering the season, and he did nothing in '05 to dissuade me from that. He was the offensive focal point for his team in a way that few forwards have ever been, as only LeBron and Bird have surpassed both his scoring and assist numbers from '05 in a single season since 1980. He was also one of the best defensive players in the league as well as the rebound champ. Overall, he led a team of old, injured chuckers to one of the better offenses in the league and a respectable defense against the odds while carrying a team with a whole lot wrong with it to 44 wins. Since we're going chronologically backward in this project, Garnett in '05 is the first player we've encountered to lead the league in PER, Win Shares, and Wins Produced in the same season.

When you put it like that... the enormity of KG's impact in so many areas is very hard to ignore.

Yes, he wasn't an elite offensive anchor like a Kobe, a Shaq, or a Dirk, but he was still a very good one, which coupled with his defense (I don't believe he was GOAT caliber on that end, I prefer the rim protection of Russell, Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan, but he was still likely top 5-7 all time), makes for one hell of a player.

Not sure where I rank him yet, but I think his peak is likely top 10 caliber, and for ATL I can see him in the 9-12 range potentially.

His '03-'05 peak was honestly just absurd, and on top of that he also had great longevity (2012 was likely better than Duncan was in either 2013 or 2014 but doesn't get talked about nearly as much).

So let me say first and foremost:

Good on you for circling back around after all the contentiousness dies down and reconsidering what you were polarized against. I think this is what all of us need to do, and frankly it's what I did with Garnett as well.

During the RPOY project, I found drza and others arguments to be solid, but I didn't switch my vote in '07-08 to Garnett, continuing to side with Kobe, Paul & LeBron over him. Later on, after the project, I would change my mind and move Garnett to the top of that year.

Now what's funny here is that I've to this day never got on board with Garnett's '04-05 candidacy. Not that I eliminate him from consideration, but despite the best-in-league production, I'm skeptical about the impact that year. While I blame Cassell and especially Sprewell for killing the vibes in Minny that year, the fact remains that that team just didn't groove, and it's not a situation where it's all about Garnett's Off minutes. The whole year was an exercise in frustration.

For me it's the opposite haha, it's mainly the 2003-05 peak that I appreciate more, not as high on 06-08. He was still very good those years but don't think he was in contention for the best in the league (could see him 3rd in 2008). The big thing he has in the prior years that was not as much of a factor in Boston was his playmaking imo.

[ardee]

His biggest obstacle in my opinion is very similar to Oscar and that's a relative lack of post-season games during his prime. While I have little doubt either of those guys would've done just fine, it's often hard to take them over similarly talented players who did get more chances in the post-season to prove themselves and took advantage of that.

KG was probably the best #2 guy ever playing as a #1 most of his career. A versatile defender, but not an anchor at the level of Russ, TD, DRob. A good offensive player, but not elite on that end, and it really showed in 4th quarters when the opposing defense focused on him.

He was a big box score stuffer though, which wlll get you the metrics to have people rate you high. I think filling box scores is overrated, to me how elite a player is at their "role" defines their greatness. And in that regard, KG has always come up a bit short outside of 2008 superteam, and even then they had all those game 7s, could have easily went wrong that season too.

I think KG was a pretty solid no. 1 in his 2003-05 peak. Here's another post from drza about the kind of load he was carrying.

After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:

The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.

In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.

And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.

So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).

NOBODY in history was doing that. If he could have pulled off that level of play in that many areas every night it would have been by far the best peak in NBA history. That he was able to do it in almost half of the playoff games against elite opponents at his peak is absurd.

KG went into every one of those playoff games knowing that if he even wanted a CHANCE to win he had to go for 30 and 15 while completely shutting down the opposing team single handedly (and yes, this is a fair time to use that term) while also running the offense and getting his teammates in position to score as well. If he was only "super elite" his team was getting beat...if he was only perfect in two or three of those areas, his team was getting beat. He had to go "best that ever played" mode across the board for them to even have a shot. And he almost did it, dominating in multiple of those areas every game and succeeding in hitting perfection across the board about once every other game. No way LeBron '12 (or '09) is touching that level of dominance at both ends of the floor and all aspects of the game. Neither is Walton '77 or Dr. J '76. KG was a monster at his peak.

I disagree with his point at the end about LeBron, but the rest really does illustrate that KG was successfully carrying a tremendous load in all areas of the game.

All that being said, I still don't rank him over Kobe for career, so rest assured haha. That doesn't mean he still wasn't really really good.