Kareem’s Defense

[Lebronnygoat]

Kareem before 1977 is probably an elite defender. Now, post merger, I feel like that drops down to great.

Thoughts?

[EmpireFalls]

I unironically think this clip captures Kareem’s defense better than anything else could

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=y4p07ZS_cL1u25hu&v=iSi6iF9kVBs&feature=youtu.be

[migya]

I unironically think this clip captures Kareem’s defense better than anything else could

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=y4p07ZS_cL1u25hu&v=iSi6iF9kVBs&feature=youtu.be

Legendary film and job by Kareem and the others. It does have some truth to it but that was probably 1980 onwards at least. He was a great defender for at least half his career and very good until his last few seasons. Kareem carried alot so him getting tired after years is understandable. Likely he didn't use any, ahem, enhancing techniques..........

[eminence]

Through '74 I'm pretty comfortable with describing him as elite (probably a step below that in his rookie season), but after Oscar left I don't think he consistently had the energy/effort level to be on that same level. Still good very late into his career on the back of his massive reach, but just good.

[70sFan]

Kareem was an elite defender, especially in the first part of his career. His length allowed him to contest a lot of shots without overcommitting. He was also very mobile for his size during his physical peak.

He was never a top tier defender historically because his reactions were inconsistent and not top notch. He also didn't have the perfect fundamentals regarding his defensive footwork and body positioning, but unlike in Shaq's case, that's not something that bothered him much until he got very old.

[Lebronnygoat]

Kareem was an elite defender, especially in the first part of his career. His length allowed him to contest a lot of shots without overcommitting. He was also very mobile for his size during his physical peak.

He was never a top tier defender historically because his reactions were inconsistent and not top notch. He also didn't have the perfect fundamentals regarding his defensive footwork and body positioning, but unlike in Shaq's case, that's not something that bothered him much until he got very old.

Interesting I agree, Duncan is is kind of like that but just better. What’s your top 10 defenders list oat look like.

[kcktiny]

Through '74 I'm pretty comfortable with describing him as elite... but after Oscar left I don't think he consistently had the energy/effort level to be on that same level.

Kareem was an elite defender, especially in the first part of his career...

Jabbar was all-defensive team 10 of his first 12 seasons (voted on by NBA head coaches), was all-defensive 1st team 5 times, 73-74, 74-75, 78-79, 79-80, 80-81. Those last 3 he was the ages of 31-33. If he wasn't an elite defender those 3 seasons, then who was?

He was never a top tier defender historically

Just out of curiosity are there any other players named to the all-defensive team 11 times that in your opinion were not historically top tier defenders?

[70sFan]

Kareem was an elite defender, especially in the first part of his career. His length allowed him to contest a lot of shots without overcommitting. He was also very mobile for his size during his physical peak.

He was never a top tier defender historically because his reactions were inconsistent and not top notch. He also didn't have the perfect fundamentals regarding his defensive footwork and body positioning, but unlike in Shaq's case, that's not something that bothered him much until he got very old.

Interesting I agree, Duncan is is kind of like that but just better. What’s your top 10 defenders list oat look like.

My top 10 defenders list:

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dikembe Mutombo
Nate Thurmond
Tim Duncan
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Wilt Chamberlain
Patrick Ewing
Ben Wallace

[kcktiny]

So a player who in a 17 year NBA career was not voted (by NBA head coaches) all-defensive 1st team even once, and only 3 times voted all-defensive 2nd team - Ewing - is somehow a better defender than Jabbar, who was voted all-defensive team 11 times, 5 times 1st team?

[90sAllDecade]

Ewing played in the era with Hakeem and Robinson getting all defensive teams to be fair.

Jabbar wouldn't have won those all-defensive teams either. Ewing was the lead on those historic 90s Knicks defenses as well.

[kcktiny]

Ewing played in the era with Hakeem and Robinson getting all defensive teams to be fair... Ewing was the lead on those historic 90s Knicks defenses as well.

Correct. From 1987-88 to 1996-97 (a decade) New York was the best defensive team in the league. And Ewing still wasn't named all-defensive 1st team, and was named all-defensive 2nd team just 3 times over that decade. Really made an impression on those NBA coaches voting for the all-defensive team, huh?

Jabbar wouldn't have won those all-defensive teams either.

Well, to be fair Jabbar played in an era of great defensive Cs like Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, Tree Rollins, Dave Cowens, and Willis Reed. If they hadn't played Jabbar likely would have been named all-defensive 1st team 11 times.

Your logic works both ways.

[homecourtloss]

Jabbar was all-defensive team 10 of his first 12 seasons (voted on by NBA head coaches), was all-defensive 1st team 5 times, 73-74, 74-75, 78-79, 79-80, 80-81. Those last 3 he was the ages of 31-33. If he wasn't an elite defender those 3 seasons, then who was?

Just out of curiosity are there any other players named to the all-defensive team 11 times that in your opinion were not historically top tier defenders?

Correct. From 1989-90 to 1996-97 New York was the best defensive team in the league. And Ewing still wasn't named all-defensive 1st team, and was named all-defensive 2nd team just once those 8 years. Really made an impression on those NBA coaches voting for the all-defensive team, huh?

Well, to be fair Jabbar played in an era of great defensive Cs like Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, Tree Rollins, Dave Cowens, and Willis Reed. If they hadn't played Jabbar likely would have been named all-defensive 1st team 11 times.
.

Why does everything boil down to who was voted to all defensive teams? We’ve seen terrible picks for all defense over and over and over again.

[kcktiny]

Why does everything boil down to who was voted to all defensive teams?

Did you watch Jabbar play from 1969-70 to at least the early 1980s? If so then what are your impressions of his defense? Which seasons that he was named all-defensive 1st or 2nd team do you feel he was not deserving, and if he wasn't who was? Or do you feel he should have been named all-defensive 1st team each season he played?

If you did not watch him play, how are you going to decide who were the best defenders of that era?

I saw him play, and have many annual NBA paperback books and magazines from that era that laud his defense.

Plus it's clear the NBA coaches that actually saw him play and that voted for the all-defensive teams at the time he played thought quite highly of his defense - again in an era of a number of other great defensive Cs.

So what information are you using to decide who were the best defensive players of the past?

We’ve seen terrible picks for all defense over and over and over again.

Well then, instead of speaking in meaningless generalizations then list those specific seasons you feel Jabbar wasn't worthy of being named to an all-defensive team, give your reasons why, tell us who should have been named instead, and tell us why so we can debate it.

[Samurai]

With the obvious caveat that the eye test has many drawbacks, Kareem's defense is still the most dominant memory I have seen live. I was visiting my aunt and uncle in Portland and they had season tickets to the Blazers in either 73 or 74. Kareem blocked at least a half a dozen shots in the first half and he so demoralized the Blazers from driving the lane that they completely abandoned going to the rim when Kareem was in the second half; everything was a long jump shot. I also saw Kareem do the same to the Warriors in Oakland around the same time period. While that was about 50 years ago, that remains the single most dominant defensive performance I can recall seeing live (not YouTube or TV) in which one man single-handedly completely changed the opposing team's entire offensive strategy.

[kcktiny]

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