Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument

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Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#1 » by Purch » Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:41 pm

Wade's strongest teammates were LeBron, Shaq and Bosh.

Harden's strongest teammates were Joel Embiid, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

I've randomly heard this argument thrown around that if Harden had Wade's teammates he'd also have a championship. But in reality Harden has played with significantly more talent than Wade has. So where does this argument even come from? Shaq in 05 was still in his prime, but he definitely had already taken a step back. And by 06 he definitely wasn't the same player.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#2 » by RCM88x » Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:41 pm

Wade was teammates with the clear best player in the league for 3 (probably 4) years. Harden has never had anyone close to that level.

Harden obviously has much more depth, naturally from moving around a lot, but that isn't really meaningful when you're reducing it down to rings.

Harden definitely could have won titles in Wades role on the Heat w/Lebron and Bosh. How many, who knows, but Wade was a borderline top 10 gun in 2012 and probably not even a top 30 guy in 2013 or 2014. Harden was better than that from like 2013-2021.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#3 » by Owly » Mon Jul 22, 2024 7:06 pm

I haven't particularly thought about this specific case so not offering an opinion there.

Lists of star names probably isn't helpful or the best process as:
1) the length of list may be misleading in terms of quantity of star support as it doesn't indicate how long (nor how healthily) they played together;
2) the list may be misleading in terms of quality of star support as it doesn't indicate which version of each player the played with;
3) every rotation player is important. Quality of "cast" surveys should be comprehensive, star name stuff is relatively superficial.

As before this isn't anti-Wade so much as against some of the evidence offered.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Jul 22, 2024 7:37 pm

I'd rather play with Lebron and Bosh than any of Harden's teams.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#5 » by jalengreen » Mon Jul 22, 2024 7:48 pm

2018: CP3 hurt in playoffs
2019:
2020: Westbrook hurt in playoffs
2021: Kyrie + Harden hurt in playoffs
2022: Embiid hurt in playoffs
2023: Embiid hurt in playoffs
2024: Kawhi hurt in playoffs

Not really a statement on Wade and what injuries he may or may not have dealt with among his co-stars, but I do think it's worth mentioning in a discussion on Harden. And obviously these injuries were of varying severity and impact (didn't really matter in 2020 imo, for example), but something worth considering when you think about how much superstar help Harden really had in this segment of his career. And 2019 CP3 wasn't injured in the playoffs IIRC, but was clearly not himself either.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#6 » by Cavsfansince84 » Mon Jul 22, 2024 8:15 pm

I think generally speaking circa 2014-2022 Harden in the rs was going to get you on avg about 5-6 more wins than circa 05-13 Wade. Both due to Wade's body breaking down and missing games and Harden's style probably being more conducive to carrying an offense. In the playoffs though I think I'd take Wade over Harden most of those years as my go to scorer/#1. Adding in the def gap as well.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#7 » by LukaTheGOAT » Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:19 pm

I believe a peak Harden could have won a championship on the 2012 or 2013 Heat. I would bet against him running off a 2006 Wade run with that Heat team, which is often referred to as Wade's magnum opus, and has a lot to do with why people say Wade>Harden.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#8 » by picko » Tue Jul 23, 2024 12:04 am

It's not just the names that are important but when you play with them and their injury history.

When you list the names of who Harden played with it obviously stacks up favourably. But you dig a little deeper and it begins to fall apart.

The two big issues relate to 1) Age and 2) Injuries. When you assess the quality of one's teammates you cannot really ignore age or availability.

In his tenure with the Thunder - the key trio were absolutely talented enough to win a title but lacked the experience to do so. And more recently with the Clippers - you have a core that on any night can look amazing but it's difficult to perform consistently in your mid-30s.

And then you have a range of players who aren't consistently available due to injury. Embiid, Kawhi, Kyrie and CP3 all fit into that category. The names are outstanding - so are their games - but their availability less so.

Wade has fewer amazing teammates but that's also a product of primarily playing for one team. Obviously his most important teammate was LeBron and it was a LeBron that was at the peak of his powers. But you also had Bosh in his prime and a post-prime Shaq that was still a handful for a couple of years. The list of names is less expansive and yet they played with Wade at the right time.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#9 » by therealbig3 » Thu Jul 25, 2024 1:40 am

I think Wade peaking higher than Harden and Wade playing with better teammates can both be true. I think Wade as far as playoff resiliency was generally better than Harden when both were at their best.

But Wade also won 2 of his titles not at his best, and that has a lot to do with how good the team around him was. He was a clear cut 2nd option who had legitimate struggles in the playoffs (mainly due to his body breaking down by that point). A peak Harden in his place would have certainly been able to match or even exceed his impact. Although in terms of fit, he’d be worse than Wade, since he has no off ball game to speak of. But the difference in talent would have been enough. No team Harden ever played for equals playing next to what many consider as peak LeBron. I’ll give that much to Harden, he never played with anyone that could take over the heavy lifting for him, especially in the playoffs, given how often Embiid and Kawhi get hurt, and he himself got hurt with the Nets. He had CP3 in 18 and 19, but those teams were clearly designed on his back.

In Wade’s place, with a prime Harden, the Heat lose in 06, but probably still win in 12 and 13, and they have a much better chance in 14. Still lose in 11. They still don’t win anything in the other seasons.
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Re: Occasionally I hear the argument that Wade had better teammates than Harden. I don't understand that argument 

Post#10 » by OhayoKD » Tue Jul 30, 2024 12:39 am

Purch wrote:Wade's strongest teammates were LeBron, Shaq and Bosh.

Harden's strongest teammates were Joel Embiid, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

I've randomly heard this argument thrown around that if Harden had Wade's teammates he'd also have a championship. But in reality Harden has played with significantly more talent than Wade has. So where does this argument even come from? Shaq in 05 was still in his prime, but he definitely had already taken a step back. And by 06 he definitely wasn't the same player.

Unless you are giving wade credit for his teamamtes not getting injured this makes negative sense.
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