What makes someone better at Basketball??

[Aleco]

Is it impact on winning, how can we quantify that. Basketball at the pro level many times is 5 v 5 or 3 v 3 at the international level.

1 player can't guard all 5 players at the same time and even offense mastery like 2021 steph only leads to ur team ranked 20th on offence out of 30 teams.

[Doctor MJ]

It is the capacity to have impact on teams that defines goodness, but this is not the same thing as a player's impact on the specific team they are on.

We can get estimates for impact in a particular context through +/- stats, but true goodness will always require data beyond what we'll actually have.

Beyond this rule changes fundamentally shift not only impact but goodness. A player who is more 'good' 1 v 1 is not necessarily the best 5 v 5, for example.

[Heej]

To me now I think of basketball as a game of steps. Whoever can consistently generate a 1 step advantage over the most people in the most situations the most times in a game. And a 1 step advantage comes in many forms whether it's driving with great speed like Fox or great place like Luka, having the sense/IQ to cut or screen at the right time to open up an advantage for yourself or a teammate, being able to read plays 1-2 rotations in advance and the technical ability to pass teammates open, having the ability to read where a ball is caroming off the glass or just plain having the strength and physicality to gain an advantage over your man consistently on the glass, all that stuff contributes to winning basketball.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen from watching and playing where a high IQ guy will cut at the right time forcing defenses into rotations that lead to an open 3, and even if the open 3 misses an easy opportunity comes up for an offensive rebound because the defense was in rotation and someone on the wing was left completely open to crash and help grab a contested rebound. The more you watch basketball the more you see these random butterfly effect type sequences because someone somewhere was able to generate an advantage somewhere on the court that turned into an opening later.

And the same way on defense there's some guys who are able to make up a step better than others. Every center can rotate over to contest a shot, but only the elite defensive ones can alter a shot and still have the wherewithal to get the rebound as well. Perimeter defenders can sink in on rollers or drivers or they can close out pretty strong on shooters, but the elite ones have 1 step further to them in terms of range as far as how well they can sink in to help in the paint while also being able to spray out to shooters and force record scratches/resets on offense.

If you want a more simplistic answer at what makes someone better at basketball, their physical attributes and mental skills when added together are higher than others. Some are like Giannis or Shaq where they physically will always have an advantage on their guys while others are like Jokic or Luka who will always have a mental advantage in terms of generating steps. The GOATs generate advantages with both

[Hair Jordan]

I’d like to see a thread explaining why some players have a savant like ability to make their team immediately better. Take Larry Bird for example; he goes to Indiana State, a team that never did squat before or after his tenure and led them to a 33-0 record as a senior and the NCAA title game. The following season he leads the Celts to the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history (at the time) and the year after he leads them to a title. Magic Johnson is another example; he won a state title, NCAA title and NBA title in a four year span. Michael Jordan is one more example; he shows up as a freshman and Dean Smith and N. Carolina immediately win their 1st NCAA title. He then leads the Bulls (a franchise that never made a Finals appearance before his arrival or after) to 6 titles in his 11 full seasons in Chicago. What made these guys savant like with their ability to win? Lots of players have talent and dedication and the right attitude but it never happens for them while others (like Magic, Bird and Jordan) seemed destined to win, like the stars are always lining up for them. That’s what makes them better than other all time greats. But what is it? What’s the difference?

[Colbinii]

I’d like to see a thread explaining why some players have a savant like ability to make their team immediately better. Take Larry Bird for example; he goes to Indiana State, a team that never did squat before or after his tenure and led them to a 33-0 record as a senior and the NCAA title game. The following season he leads the Celts to the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history (at the time) and the year after he leads them to a title. Magic Johnson is another example; he won a state title, NCAA title and NBA title in a four year span. Michael Jordan is one more example; he shows up as a freshman and Dean Smith and N. Carolina immediately win their 1st NCAA title. He then leads the Bulls (a franchise that never made a Finals appearance before his arrival or after) to 6 titles in his 11 full seasons in Chicago. What made these guys savant like with their ability to win? Lots of players have talent and dedication and the right attitude but it never happens for them while others (like Magic, Bird and Jordan) seemed destined to win, like the stars are always lining up for them. That’s what makes them better than other all time greats.

Better than what all-time greats?

Russell won right away.
LeBron won right away.
Duncan won right away.
Kareem won right away.
KG won right away.
Kobe won once he was Bird/Magic/Jordan age.
Shaq won right away.
Wilt won right away.

Players like KD, Wade and Robinson had success relatively early as well

Is there a particular great you had in mind for comparison who didn't have early success?

[OhayoKD]

I’d like to see a thread explaining why some players have a savant like ability to make their team immediately better. Take Larry Bird for example; he goes to Indiana State, a team that never did squat before or after his tenure and led them to a 33-0 record as a senior and the NCAA title game. The following season he leads the Celts to the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history (at the time) and the year after he leads them to a title. Magic Johnson is another example; he won a state title, NCAA title and NBA title in a four year span. Michael Jordan is one more example; he shows up as a freshman and Dean Smith and N. Carolina immediately win their 1st NCAA title. He then leads the Bulls (a franchise that never made a Finals appearance before his arrival or after) to 6 titles in his 11 full seasons in Chicago. What made these guys savant like with their ability to win? Lots of players have talent and dedication and the right attitude but it never happens for them while others (like Magic, Bird and Jordan) seemed destined to win, like the stars are always lining up for them. That’s what makes them better than other all time greats.

Better than what all-time greats?

Russell won right away.
LeBron won right away.
Duncan won right away.
Kareem won right away.
KG won right away.
Kobe won once he was Bird/Magic/Jordan age.
Shaq won right away.
Wilt won right away.

Players like KD, Wade and Robinson had success relatively early as well

Is there a particular great you had in mind for comparison who didn't have early success?

Jordan

(and kg but ignore please)

[Colbinii]

I’d like to see a thread explaining why some players have a savant like ability to make their team immediately better. Take Larry Bird for example; he goes to Indiana State, a team that never did squat before or after his tenure and led them to a 33-0 record as a senior and the NCAA title game. The following season he leads the Celts to the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history (at the time) and the year after he leads them to a title. Magic Johnson is another example; he won a state title, NCAA title and NBA title in a four year span. Michael Jordan is one more example; he shows up as a freshman and Dean Smith and N. Carolina immediately win their 1st NCAA title. He then leads the Bulls (a franchise that never made a Finals appearance before his arrival or after) to 6 titles in his 11 full seasons in Chicago. What made these guys savant like with their ability to win? Lots of players have talent and dedication and the right attitude but it never happens for them while others (like Magic, Bird and Jordan) seemed destined to win, like the stars are always lining up for them. That’s what makes them better than other all time greats.

Better than what all-time greats?

Russell won right away.
LeBron won right away.
Duncan won right away.
Kareem won right away.
KG won right away.
Kobe won once he was Bird/Magic/Jordan age.
Shaq won right away.
Wilt won right away.

Players like KD, Wade and Robinson had success relatively early as well

Is there a particular great you had in mind for comparison who didn't have early success?

Jordan

(and kg but ignore please)

Both KG and to a lesser extent Jordan were able to impact winning very early in their careers.

[Hair Jordan]

I’d like to see a thread explaining why some players have a savant like ability to make their team immediately better. Take Larry Bird for example; he goes to Indiana State, a team that never did squat before or after his tenure and led them to a 33-0 record as a senior and the NCAA title game. The following season he leads the Celts to the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history (at the time) and the year after he leads them to a title. Magic Johnson is another example; he won a state title, NCAA title and NBA title in a four year span. Michael Jordan is one more example; he shows up as a freshman and Dean Smith and N. Carolina immediately win their 1st NCAA title. He then leads the Bulls (a franchise that never made a Finals appearance before his arrival or after) to 6 titles in his 11 full seasons in Chicago. What made these guys savant like with their ability to win? Lots of players have talent and dedication and the right attitude but it never happens for them while others (like Magic, Bird and Jordan) seemed destined to win, like the stars are always lining up for them. That’s what makes them better than other all time greats.

Better than what all-time greats?

Russell won right away.
LeBron won right away.
Duncan won right away.
Kareem won right away.
KG won right away.
Kobe won once he was Bird/Magic/Jordan age.
Shaq won right away.
Wilt won right away.

Players like KD, Wade and Robinson had success relatively early as well

Is there a particular great you had in mind for comparison who didn't have early success?

Jordan

(and kg but ignore please)

Lebron lost his first two Finals and didn’t win a ring until his 9th season and only after teaming up with Wade/Bosh. Duncan didn’t win in college. KG won right away? He couldn’t get out of the 1st round for 7 consecutive years and only won a single time in his 13th year. Kobe rode Shaq’s nuts to his 1st three titles. Shaq didn’t win squat in college. Wilt didn’t win squat in college and went 2-4 in the Finals. What’chu talkin ‘bout Willis?