Who you pick Today's Game #2~ Hakeem vs Jokic?

[tsherkin]

Hakeem, he would focus more on shooting threes as he had shooting touch, passing to even more open three-point shooters than he did with the Rockets championship teams. And his defense and ability to switch as well as vertical defense would create an even bigger gap between him and other centers IMO.

He would be basically a better, more athletic, and healthier Embiid in today's game, and one of the best defenders in the league.

I don't doubt that Hakeem would be better than Embiid, but it's not true that he'd be a better version of Embiid - he never had Embiid shooting touch for example, he was significantly smaller and he didn't draw fouls at comparable rate. Hakeem and Embiid are two completely different players.

Yeah, stylistically, they are a lot different. I think Hakeem would be better off from availability as much as anything else. Totally dissimilar in terms of their approach on the court, though.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If Embiid was a DPOY level defensive player and couldn’t shoot from three he’d be a top 5 peak ever and clearly above Jokic even in the RS where Jokic in his current situation is a clear positive defender

[oaktownwarriors87]

Obviously for today's game you would take Jokic, and that is only because of the differences of how the game is played now versus then. Poster's also need to remember that Hakeem was a soccer player first and never picked up basketball until a teenager. So, I believe how this is supposed to go is that Hakeem, based on his skillsets of the 80-90's etc, into today's game...

But if you told me it was based on potential and Hakeem gets recruited young I would trust his incredible 2-way play in today's game. I honestly don't think it's too hard for any ATG to easily adjust and adapt to any era, so I may even take Hakeem as is, but I'm assuming it's more of a pick and plop into era.

In today's age Hakeem would have been likely to pick the game up at a younger age and receive much better training. Using the age that he started to play at against him is pretty unfair.

[Owly]

Obviously for today's game you would take Jokic, and that is only because of the differences of how the game is played now versus then. Poster's also need to remember that Hakeem was a soccer player first and never picked up basketball until a teenager. So, I believe how this is supposed to go is that Hakeem, based on his skillsets of the 80-90's etc, into today's game...

But if you told me it was based on potential and Hakeem gets recruited young I would trust his incredible 2-way play in today's game. I honestly don't think it's too hard for any ATG to easily adjust and adapt to any era, so I may even take Hakeem as is, but I'm assuming it's more of a pick and plop into era.

In today's age Hakeem would have been likely to pick the game up at a younger age and receive much better training. Using the age that he started to play at against him is pretty unfair.

I don't think it's "unfair" so much as time machine allows for a very wide range of interpretations (which is not to say that it's "fair"). Sometimes (often?) this does mean people can/will tilt the framing towards supporting their existing beliefs. But I don't think there's one, "fair" time travel variation above all others (for instance it's not like changing an entire childhood is a beacon of transparency and certainty). And I think in this case the responder is trying to interpret the question asked wrt "in today's game" as they see it ... and I'm inclined to agree that framing trends towards moving a known player towards a new context more than moving a baby for whom we know their adult profile in another context, though this is absolutely open to interpretation.

[nate33]

Dream

Jokic has never beaten a 50 win team in the playoffs

Hakeem beat 4 teams with 57-62 wins in 1995 alone

That seems bad at first, but when you put it in context, not so much.

Jokic has been an elite player for 6 years start at age 23. Here's how his playoffs went:

2018-19. Beat the 48 win Spurs. Lost to the 53-win Blazers. His 2 best teammates were 33-year-old Millsap and 21-year old Murray.

2019-20. 72-game season. They beat the 44-win Jazz who played a 50-win pace when projected over an 82 game season. They beat the 49-win Clippers who projected to a 56 wins pace. They lost to the 51-win Lakers who projected to a 60-win season and won the title

2020-21. Another 72-game season. They beat the 42-win Blazers (48 wins projected). Lost to the 51-win Suns (59-wins projected) who went to the Finals

2021-22. Everyone was hurt. Jokic and a bunch of backups lost to the 53-win Warriors, who went on to win a title.

2022-23. Lots of parity in the league. 20 of the 30 teams in the league had 40+ wins. As a result, there were only two 50-win teams in the West, and Denver was one of them. It's hard to beat a 50-win team if you don't face one. They beat every team they faced and won a title while losing a total of 4 playoff games.

2023-24. Beat the 47-win Lakers and lost to the 56-win TWolves. This was their first bad loss in the playoffs, and it wasn't really that bad.

He may never have beat a 50-win team, but he has beaten two 50-win projected teams assuming an 82-game schedule. His only playoff losses were:
53-win Blazers when he had no help
60-win (projected) Lakers who won a title.
59-win (projected) Suns who went to the Finals.
53-win Warriors when he had no help. (And the Warriors went on to win a title.)
56-win TWolves last season.

It's not like he loses every time he faces a 50-win team. Only the near-60 win teams have beaten him when he has a respectable supporting cast.