Retro Player of the Year 1959-60 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[tsherkin]

Bill Simmons said in TBoB he thought Gar Heard's turnaround was a 50-footer (p10).

Ooof, lol.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Bill Russell

I guess he's the best player of the era and he won it all again. It's hard to wrap my brain around someone being so good defensively they end up ahead of 30 point guys who are also great defenders but the stats bear it out I guess.

2 - Wilt Chaimberlain

Feels kind of mean not to give it to him when he wins the MVP and has the Celtics at 6 games. Honestly I didn't even know he was the MVP this year. Honestly with this good of a rookie year its kind of wierd he didn't end up dominating.

3 - Bob Petit

Kinda feel he might be a bit underrated with all the times he's taking a GOAT candidate's team to 7.

4 - Schayes

He keeps being mentioned as top 3 in OPOY and/or DPOY so I guess It's wierdish he doesn't end up higher in these votes. Especially if defense really was everythign in the 60's. I guess he needed to win more in the playoffs.

5 - Baylor

Yeah, why not.


Defensive player of the year

1 - Russell
2 - Wilt
3 - Schayes

Offensive player of the year

1 - Petit
2 - Baylor
3 - Wilt

[eminence]

Transcriber mixed up 15 and 50, happens all the time

Whoops Bill.

[Owly]

On Heard I started a longer post about false memories, thinking people beyond Lazenby citing it as deep (then tangenting off) and he was a kid at the time and maybe sightlines and it's Bill so re-emphasizing hyperbole as a possibility for him, but even then it's pretty wild ... it felt rambly (when has that stopped me before, I know)
I'll give the quote to try to be fair

I remember thinking it was a 50-footer at the time

(italics added by me)

[penbeast0]

I eemember watching Jack Marin shoot that corner shot regularly for the Bullets before he was traded for Elvin Hayes. The difference between that and a corner 3 is you didn't have to watch your feet to make sure you were behind a line so some of them were shorter but it was a place you moved to when a teammate was driving the lane to look for the kick out. It was something we were coached in.

[eminence]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
Celtics are better than ever despite the continued decline of their guards (though Sam is getting up to speed). I attribute that mainly to Russell continuing to improve into the early 60s to a true all-time level peak whereas before he'd been more of a step or two ahead of Pettit/Schayes. Wilt's arrival probably helps continue to push him higher.

2. Wilt Chamberlain
I'd been thinking about Wilt for the top spot, but had forgotten about him punching Gola mid playoff game and injuring both himself and his #3 in the process. So yeah, consider him lucky to not be demoted to #3 on this list. Prior to that, masterful rookie season, probably the best to date in the NBA (Mikan's NBL season?) and one of the best ever. The scoring is not as impactful as pure volume would make it look, but it's still valuable, and he's huge on the glass and on defense. Plenty to learn as a passer. Overall great job turning the Warriors around.

3. Bob Pettit
Again gets the Hawks to within a game of the title. Pretty consistent level of play from his 2nd season through his second to last season ('64), some indications of improved passing or at least increased playmaking duties this season and last. Good pick for #3 in MVP voting, and without an upset loss on the resume in the playoffs (close, but no cigar Elgin) and then going 7 in the Finals I don't see much reason to move him down this go around.

4. Dolph Schayes
4 vs 5 was my toughest ballot decision this season. I'm going to give it to Dolph for the defensive edge over Elgin's scoring advantage. Rebounding/playmaking I find close to a wash for the two. Dolph is not Russell/Wilt, but we saw him playing big minutes on team after team pumping out average to great defenses with all sorts of supporting casts, I'm quite sold on him being a very solid defensive player. Great albeit brief playoff showing. Maybe if Yardley had just a bit more gas in the tank.

5. Elgin Baylor
Elgin may have pushed past the point of useful offensive monopolization. When I see what happens with West in the coming seasons I'm inclined to believe he just wasn't great at utilizing his teammates talents - though admittedly there wasn't a ton of talent hanging around this season. This also reflects poorly on West if you were worried and is why I'm Team Oscar as the top 60s guard. Closer to the next guy in the Fulks to Arizin all the way to KD (who's next?) line than the first proto LeBron (Oscar imo). I'll give him his props for cranking up the PO scoring again, but when it caps out at putting a scare into a good team but ultimately losing it doesn't go near as far as actually getting the upset. Team moving to LA next season not a great sign for how things were going at home.

[70sFan]

I'll note Sauldsberry wasn't any good at it, but my impression is that he was generally shooting from a reasonable distance.

I did a quick research of my archives to find all the available Sauldsberry field goal attempts and collected them here:

Watch on YouTube

It's a very small sample, but you can see that the vast majority of his shots came from long midrange area. On top of that, when you analyze the available footage, Woody rarely played inside the paint and he mainly roamed on the perimeter, trying to create space for others. We know he wasn't effective shooter, but your impression seems to be in line with the available material we can use to grasp his style of play.

[70sFan]

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell - Russell reached his true peak-ish region this season, which is nothing short of a GOAT-level tier. He led an all-time defense throughout the RS (-5.9 rDRtg) and PS (-5.8 rDRtg), which is the teaser for the next decade. On top of that, Russell kept expanding his offensive game, having his best scoring and passing year up to that point. There are reasons to believe that it was the finest scoring season of Russell's career (though I'd put 1962 above it based on PS performace), as it was the best season of his career both in terms of FG% and FT%. He finished with these scoring numbers (per thinkingbasketball.net):

1960 RS: 14.1 pp75 on +3.3 rTS%
1960 PS: 14.4 pp5 on +5.6 rTS%

These are solid numbers. Considering his all-time level defensive impact and clear positive offensive contribution, I can't have him any lower. He still wasn't overtaxed with playmaking duties, as Cousy was still in his prime form, but he showed signs of improvement. In the playoffs, he outplayed rookie Wilt and was clearly the best player in the close finals series.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - one of the best rookie seasons of all-time. Chamberlain averaged 27.2 pp75 on +3.0 rTS% in RS, but his scoring arguably wasn't the most impactful aspect of his game - he also anchored -4.5 rDRtg defense, good enough for clearly 2nd best in the league (the Warriors were not good defensively before him). Some people question Wilt's postseason production, but his scoring numbers were still phenomenal during that run: 24.6 pp75 on +4.4 rTS% and this includes an unfortunate situation in the Celtics series.

I don't think he challenges Russell in his first 2 seasons, but he already accomplished enough to put him ahead of the other POY candidates.

3. Bob Pettit
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Dolph Schayes

The three forwards are extremely hard to put in the right order for me. Pettit seems to be the most consistent throughout the season, Baylor and Schayes were spectacular in the playoffs but in limited sample, it's not like Pettit didn't deliver in the postseason either. Here are the basic scoring stats and team offensive results:

Pettit: 23.1 pp75 on +4.7 rTS% in RS (+2.5 rORtg), 22.7 pp75 on +5.7 rTS% in PS (+1.1 rORtg)
Baylor: 25.7 pp75 on +2.6 rTS% in RS (-2.6 rORtg), 26.4 pp75 on +8.8 rTS% in PS (+0.2 rORtg)
Schayes: 21.4 pp75 on +3.3 rTS% in RS (+2.0 rORtg), 23.8 pp75 on +9.0 rTS% in PS (-0.5 rORtg)

I decided to put them in this order, but I am willing to change my choice.

HM: Cliff Hagan, Richie Guerin, Bob Cousy - to be honest, none of them are even remotely close to the top 5.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Elgin Baylor - Derives most of his impact on offense. Just a huge PS and a massive carryjob.

2. Bob Pettit - Led the #1 offense. Very efficient.

3. Dolph Schayes - Not a lot of offensive impact but his floor raising is still valuable. 37.6 ppg on +3.0 rTS is still valuable on a middling offensive team.

HM: Wilt Chamberlain, Richie Guerin

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell - easy choice.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - another easy choice

3. Walter Dukes - don't see any other quality candidate, it's between him and Woody for me.[/quote]

[70sFan]

…

I wonder, if you have Guerin as your POY candidate, then what holds him back from being inside top 5 POY? By all accounts, Guerin was a very solid defender and I don't think any of the Pettit/Schayes/Baylor bring a ton of defensive value to easily surpass him.

[ZeppelinPage]

POY
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bob Pettit
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Dolph Schayes

OPOY
1. Bob Pettit
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Wilt Chamberlain

DPOY
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Woody Sauldsberry

More straightforward now. Wilt already nearing POY as a rookie, and will be atop my board soon enough. Celtics are still unmatched and Russell leads a dominating defense to yet another ring. Wilt and the Warriors put up a good fight in his rookie year. Elgin and Pettit are close, Elgin is the better passer and Pettit more efficient. This year it goes to Pettit. I gave another DPOY to Sauldsberry for his reputation. Wilt is already top 3 for OPOY for his ability to score and rebound. Schayes is hitting his stride as a shooter and is a solid top 5 player for me at this point.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 14 voters: Djoker, Trex, AEnigma, Eminence, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, IlikeShaiGuys, OhayoKD, One_and_Done, falcolombardi, Zeppelin, 70sFan, and trelos. One_and_Done, penbeast, and eminence abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1959-60 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Bob Pettit (3)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bob Pettit    6   4   1    43     0.782
2. Elgin Baylor    3   6   0    33     0.600
3. Richie Guerin   1    1    0     8    0.145
4a. Wilt Chamberlain   0   0   5     5    0.091
4b. Larry Costello   1   0   0     5    0.091
6. Dolph Schayes   0    0    4      4     0.073
7. Jack Twyman   0    0    1      1     0.018

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (4) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   11    0    0     55     1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain   0   11   0    33    0.600
3. Dolph Schayes    0    0    3      3    0.055
3. Tom Gola   0   0   3     3    0.055
5. Red Kerr    0    0    2      2    0.036
5. Woody Sauldsberry   0   0   2    2    0.036
7. Walter Dukes    0    0    1      1    0.018

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell (2)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  13  1  0  0  0   137    0.979
2. Wilt Chamberlain  1  13  0  0  0   101  0.721
3. Bob Pettit   0  0  8  6  0   58     0.414
4. Elgin Baylor   0  0  5  6  3   46    0.327
5. Dolph Schayes   0  0  1  2  11   22   0.157

In the prior project, there were 14 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 26 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  21  5  0  0  0   245    0.942
2. Wilt Chamberlain  5  21  0  0  0   197   0.758
3. Bob Pettit   0  0  16  10  0   110     0.423
4. Elgin Baylor   0  0  9  12  4   85    0.327
5. Dolph Schayes   0  0  1  3  15   29   0.112
6. Cliff Hagan   0  0  0  1  5   8   0.031
7. Bob Cousy    0  0  0  0  2   2   0.008

1961 thread will open shortly.

[Top10alltime]

Hey guys am going to share thoughts:

1. Wilt chamberlain: Russell gets surprise this season, imo he is opoy bc this is pre robertson.
Baylor had worse ortg team in both PO and RS, he had slight better offense scoring playoffs. Petit team was slightly better but wilt team has less help and also wilt carried bigger load. Wilt is also 2 dpoy obvious bc huge improvement from szn before in both RS and PO.

2. Russell: he did do good on wilt in PO, but barely outpaced them on defense in PO. Also wilt had 25.8 IA pts/75 vs russ.

Russ had cooked playoffs. His o was obviously there. 20 and 17 ppg in each series. He would be fmvp. Played 8 more mpg then any celtics.

He play with superteam but he was now the clear leader. His offense contribution along with his clear top 1 dpoy is why he gets here at number 2.

3. Petit: he made the finals and somehow is not shut down by Russ. His offense is top 3 for carrying the biggest load, main offensive player in the team. He also helped the strong hawk offense too.

4. Baylor: insane playoff, carry job is ridiculous. He will be top 2 opoy and I am still questioning how good his defence rlly is. Did well in reg szn too, with 25.7 IA pts/75 in RS and this is one of the seasons he has good efficiency too.

5. Schayes: he has consistently made top 5 from 58-60, so this year he makes it. He will be HM for dpoy and opoy Kerr is better at defense than him imo.

Opoy:
1. Wilt
2. Baylor
3. Petit

Dpoy:
1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. (real debate) kerr