Retro Player of the Year 1960-61 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[penbeast0]

...Baylor was more talented than Pettit. I feel fairly confident about that much. Baylor was probably more impactful on both ends than Pettit....

On what do you base the idea that Baylor was more talented than Pettit or had a better defensive rep? More flashy sure; Pettit was very Tim Duncan like. But over their shared careers, Pettit consistently played more games until his final year, scored more efficiently, rebounded slightly better, and had a better defensive rep in terms of the interviews I have read of contemporaries. I think Pettit is generally considered to have an edge on intangibles as well but I don't know how much of that is due to the very real racism that Baylor faced.

Baylor had clearly better handles, passed better, but also had issues with giving primacy to Jerry West when West was the clearly superior player.

[Dutchball97]

I'm pretty busy these days but I hope to be able to my vote in tomorrow. Russell will definitely be 1st on my ballot with Wilt, Baylor and Pettit 2-4 in some order. I'm still undecided whether to include Oscar despite missing the post-season or someone else who might have been a worse player but had a more complete overall season. Mainly looking at guys like Schayes, Cousy and Hagan. Not sure if there's anyone else worth considering.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell - Obvious #1. Led an outlier defense en route to a 3rd straight title. MVP. 2nd Team All-NBA presumably for having lesser stats than Wilt. Averaged 16.0/23.9/3.4 on 45.4 %TS (-1.5 rTS) in the RS and then 19.1/29.9/4.8 on 45.7 %TS (-1.2 rTS) in the PS. Raised his game in the 2nd season and the Celtics were hardly challenged on their way.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Hard for me to take anyone over the big guy for #2. Just the sheer two-way impact and historically underrated scoring. 1st Team All-NBA. Averaged 38.4/27.2/1.9 on 51.9 %TS (+5.0 rTS) in the RS then 37.0/23.0/2.0 on 49.2 %TS (+2.3 rTS) in the PS. Loss to the Nats was disappointing but Nats were the better team by SRS and Wilt wasn't poor by any means.

3. Elgin Baylor - Just another monster season for Elgin. 1st Team All-NBA. Averaged 34.8/19.8/5.1 on 49.8 %TS (+2.9 rTS) in the RS and then 38.1/15.3/4.6 on 53.8 %TS (+6.9 rTS) in the PS. Just a huge postseason performance. Given that he was better than the next guy on this list and outplayed him in the PS yet again, I don't see how he isn't ahead of him.

4. Bob Pettit - Very good year for the 2nd best team in the league. 1st Team All-NBA. Averaged 27.9/20.3/3.4 on 51.1 %TS (+4.2 rTS) in the RS then 28.6/17.6/3.2 on 49.4 %TS (+2.5 rTS) in the PS. In the Finals, Pettit was strong against Russell putting up 28.4/16.4/3.0 on 48.8 %TS (+1.9 rTS) but it's not enough for me to place him higher.

5. Oscar Robertson - Pretty much hit the ground running. 1st Team All-NBA. The only stain is missing the playoffs so that along with him being a rookie makes me hesitant to put him higher although I feel I may be underrating him. I can easily see him as high as #3 because his combination of scoring and playmaking makes him the best offensive player in the league. Averaged 30.5/10.1/9.7 on 55.5 %TS (+8.6 rTS).

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Wilt Chamberlain - Lacks the playmaking of the first two.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Woody Sauldsberry - Warriors' defense declined and Hawks' defense improved as he moved.

[B-Mitch 30]

Since when is Wilt's scoring underrated? I feel like that's the thing people talk about the most with him.

[Djoker]

Since when is Wilt's scoring underrated? I feel like that's the thing people talk about the most with him.

Well underrated in the context of relative efficiency. During the previous project and in general, few people analyzed the 60's through the lens of rTS. Oscar and West were obviously more efficient but Wilt was quite efficient himself.

[penbeast0]

I don't know about obviously more efficient. Wilt's career ts% was .547 while West's was .550 and Wilt started in the league a couple of years earlier so his rTS% is actually higher.

Relative to position, yes. Guard were traditionally less efficient than centers in the 50s to 70s era so Oscar and Jerry stood out from their positional peers much more than Wilt did. But overall, it's reasonable close (and Wilt would be the most efficient if he'd been a good FT shooter).

[Dutchball97]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell - I'll keep it short this time as I don't have much time but Russell seems like a clear POY to me. He again led the Celtics to be the best defense and best team overall. There doesn't seem to be much competition with Wilt flaming out early and Oscar missing the post-season completely.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Not entirely sure where to place him but in the regular season he was really good and despite disappointing team results, he held up more than fine individually.

3. Elgin Baylor - Close one between Baylor and Pettit but I think Baylor outplaying Pettit head to head is the deciding factor for me since there isn't much between them in the regular season.

4. Bob Pettit - Pettit ends up just below Wilt and Baylor but clearly ahead of everyone else in the league with a strong all around run to the finals that just didn't quite impress as much as the guys ahead of him.

5. Cliff Hagan - I don't think Oscar had a strong enough regular season to make himself undeniable here even without a post-season. Schayes had the best chance to pass him by but had a uncharacteristically disappointing play-offs himself. Cousy was another strong candidate as a an All-NBA 1st teamer with playmaking as good as ever but Cousy's minutes have been reduced by quite a bit at this point, while Hagan is still putting in work as a 1B to Pettit. Hagan's strong performance in the finals earned him this final spot on my ballot.

I doubt I'll find the time today to get my OPOY and DPOY ballots in so this way I'll at least have the main POY covered.

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Bob Pettit

Missed the last couple years of voting but it's still the same with Russell at 1st. Honestly, I am surprised he hasn't been unanimous already. Not as ridiculous an outlier of a regular season as last or next year but the Celtics dominated to a title with the second best postseason relative rating until 1985. Wilt at his best could beat Russell but this is one of those down years where it's not close. The Warriors defense was solid but not spectacular and their overall net didnt really stand out. With a solid group of Arizin/Gola/Rodgers, I don't think it's a weak supporting cast either. Just a bit too much uncertainty with Oscar missing games and the playoffs though so I will default to Wilt at 2nd this season.

Oscar entered the league as a game breaker on offense - nobody comes close to him with his combination of scoring, playmaking, and efficiency. Long history as a WOWY GOAT throughout his career and even in his rookie season, Oscar was providing 10+ SRS lift per ElGee's spreadsheet. Simply a different class of player from Baylor/Pettit offensively. Team results weren't great but they only missed the playoffs by one game and as shown in the WOWY data, the Royals were WOAT level without him. Baylor's Lakers weren't much better overall and I am more concerned that this is the second year in a row where they were almost the worst offense in the league. Pettit's Hawks had a SRS jump due to defense and made the Finals but Woody Sauldsberry was low key the biggest difference maker this season. He missed 10 games and the Hawks gave up 10.4 more points per game during his absence. And for a guy who averaged 7.5 points on 29.9% FG in the regular season, him exploding for 26 points on 13-27 FG in G6 (1 point win) and 22 points on 11-23 FG in G7 (2 point win) was key to the Hawks advancing to the Finals. Pettit averaged 28/16/3 on 48.8% TS against the Celtics but was once again outdone by Hagan's 29/12/4 on 58.3% TS.

I have been the biggest Schayes supporter this project but this is where his run ends IMO. Some of the best RS box scores of his career but much of it is just from pace inflation. His all in one numbers have fallen off and while the team performance was still great, it would continue the next two seasons as he declined severely. The Nationals did sweep Wilt and the Warriors in the first round but 2 of the 3 wins came with Schayes scoring 12.5 ppg on 31.7% TS. Simply too much new talent for him to keep up at this age but it's been a good run and I am glad he has gotten far more respect than in the original project.

[tsherkin]

Since when is Wilt's scoring underrated? I feel like that's the thing people talk about the most with him.

Well underrated in the context of relative efficiency. During the previous project and in general, few people analyzed the 60's through the lens of rTS. Oscar and West were obviously more efficient but Wilt was quite efficient himself.

But he was also an even larger-than-life example of the Adrian Dantley phenomenon, right? There is a ceiling to how much a team offense benefits from even high-efficiency individual scoring without quality playmaking. Unipolar scoring vs helio or better distributed systems and all that.

[Djoker]

Since when is Wilt's scoring underrated? I feel like that's the thing people talk about the most with him.

Well underrated in the context of relative efficiency. During the previous project and in general, few people analyzed the 60's through the lens of rTS. Oscar and West were obviously more efficient but Wilt was quite efficient himself.

But he was also an even larger-than-life example of the Adrian Dantley phenomenon, right? There is a ceiling to how much a team offense benefits from even high-efficiency individual scoring without quality playmaking. Unipolar scoring vs helio or better distributed systems and all that.

For sure. That's why Wilt is my #3 pick for OPOY and I wouldn't object too heavily if people leave him off their ballot entirely.

[tsherkin]

Well underrated in the context of relative efficiency. During the previous project and in general, few people analyzed the 60's through the lens of rTS. Oscar and West were obviously more efficient but Wilt was quite efficient himself.

But he was also an even larger-than-life example of the Adrian Dantley phenomenon, right? There is a ceiling to how much a team offense benefits from even high-efficiency individual scoring without quality playmaking. Unipolar scoring vs helio or better distributed systems and all that.

For sure. That's why Wilt is my #3 pick for OPOY and I wouldn't object too heavily if people leave him off their ballot entirely.

Right on. But yes, he was undoubtedly efficient in-era. Quite so, in fact. Even in his hyper volume seasons. And as he moderated his volume, that went even higher. Wild stuff. Would have loved to see him in a more contemporary environment. He would have been demonic.

[eminence]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
Celtics keep on rolling - great RS and not challenged in the playoffs. I'll tend to give the benefit of the doubt towards dynasties and their stars, and the Russell Celtics are as dominant as they come. The defense is out of this world regardless of which pace estimates you're looking at. There's not much to say season after season sometimes, but I guess it could be worth pointing out that this PO run is the first time he flashes a bit higher assist volume. He's still only a tertiary offensive option (can look higher than this at first statistical glance due to the huge minutes load, but looking at the /36 #s and on film it's pretty clear he's always the 4th/5th guy on offense) but it's something. As long as you aren't sinking the offense on your own you'll be making plenty of top 5s with this level of defense.

2. Bob Pettit
Speaking of guys who can tank an offense and elevate a defense, it's Bob's new running mate Woody! Probably with some help from Coach Seymour. Anywho, just a nice reminder that Bob was a solid defender, taking a big role on a strong defensive squad. Gets the team to the Finals again, but it looks like last season was the Hawks last time giving the Celtics a decent series. Strong looking series from Pettit in their win, and seems solid vs Boston as well. I'd take him as the top offensive big in the game at this point (probably starting in '59).

3. Wilt Chamberlain
I came in too high on Wilt's defense last season. Closer to a 'best-of-the-rest' over Woody/Kerr than approaching Russell. Even with the raw box overrating his offensive level (and leading Wilt down a dumb road in seasons to come) he was still a stronger offensive contributor than that group. Overall quite comfortable with him here at #3. I do consider the playoff loss an upset (you have homecourt and lose, it's an upset), but it doesn't seem to tie directly to Wilt - Nationals guards light them up while Gola forgets how to shoot. The guys below him didn't particularly lead their squads to much (East still much stronger than the West).

4. Elgin Baylor
Another strong season from Elgin, especially on the scoring front. Shows up again in the playoffs and comes up just short. Rebounding #s overestate his impact on the possession game as best I can tell, but a very strong non-big rebounder. In seasons to come I wish he'd have done a bit better job handing the offense off to West, but this season in particular I don't think West was quite ready.

5. Oscar Robertson
A new frontier of offensive heliocentric play has arrived. Honestly, I think he has a strong argument as high as #2 for 'best' player, but he missed some time and the team missed the playoffs in part due to that. If we'd gotten a chance to see him in the playoffs he could've been notably higher, would've been quite the duel with Elgin I imagine and it would've been really nice to see he/West matchup once in the 60s ('72 as their only PO series against one another is such a bummer). But as is I'm hesitant to put the rookie above vets I see as having good playoff appearances and having comparable regular seasons. If Dolph had looked more directly responsible for the win over the Warriors he may have gotten on here as well, do still have him as #6 this season.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, OhayoKD, eminence, One_and_Done, LA Bird, Narigo, and trelos. One_and_Done, LA Bird, penbeast, Dutchball97, eminence, and Narigo abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1960-61 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Oscar Robertson (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Oscar Robertson    5   0   0    25     1.000
2. Elgin Baylor    0   4   0    12     0.480
3a. Bob Pettit   0    0    3     3    0.120
3b. Gene Shue   0   1   0     3    0.120
4. Bob Cousy   0   0   1     1    0.040
4. Wilt Chamberlain   0    0    1      1     0.040

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (5) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   5    0    0     25     1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain   0   5   0    15    0.600
3. Woody Sauldsberry    0    0    3      3    0.120
4. K.C. Jones    0    0    1      1    0.040
4. Dolph Schayes   0   0   0    1    0.040

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell (3) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  11  0  0  0  0   110    1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain  0  8  3  0  0   71  0.645
3. Elgin Baylor   0  2  4  3  1   44     0.400
4. Bob Pettit    0  1  1  6  3   33    0.300
5. Oscar Robertson  0  0  3  2  5   26   0.236
6. Cliff Hagan    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.009
6. Dolph Schayes    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.009

In the prior project, there were 14 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 23 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  23  0  0  0  0   230    1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain  0  10  11  1  1   129  0.561
3. Elgin Baylor   0  11  6  4  1   120     0.522
4. Bob Pettit    0  2  2  12  7   67    0.291
5. Oscar Robertson  0  0  4  6  12   50   0.217
6. Cliff Hagan    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004
6. Dolph Schayes    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004

1962 thread will open shortly.

[Top10alltime]

Hey guys I know this is over but I just want to share my thoughts.

1. Russell: I will take russell over down year of wilt this season, celtics defense anchored by russell is nasty defense, he is clearly dpoy and also didn't sink offense on own. There is reason he is unanimous poy (next season is unreasonable that is unanimous, def debate).

Russell is 1st dpoy, his defense is enough to put him right here at 1st poy. Nuff said

2. Wilt: top 3 opoy and top 2 dpoy. Just don't see anyone else come close to these two. Sauldsberry is leaving that obvious hurt the defense, but his post presence is huge and also incredible scoring.

The playoffs wasn't his fault his teammates choked it all, but averaging 26 ia pts/75 is hardly bad. He is top 2

3. Baylor: I woulda choose oscar but he missed playoffs. Baylor is the top 2 in opoy because of the damn PO where he cooked petit and almost beat him (rookie west is not impressive help). I am really impressed by a rookie oscar but the fact that the team was terrible just put Baylor over the top here. Also Baylor and petit are close in RS but PO makes the difference here.

4. Oscar: very impressed with oscar here, there is a reason that he is the unanimous opoy here. Scoring at 30 a game very efficiently and playmaking at high rate. Along with very strong ortg. If his team made the PO I might have him already ahead of wilt as rookie. Along with wilt, he may be only rookie opoy on all my ballots. But he lands at top four

5. Petit: very good offense prolly woulda beat wilt in there if not that Russ completely dominated petit and also that is another reason for russell as easily the best this szn. Petit though didn't make much gap between Baylor and himself in the reg szn. He is making the top 5 in this szn so he is keeping up consistently in the poy ballots from 57-61. Greatness but I have him down in top 5.

Opoy
1. Oscar (easily)
2. Baylor
3. Wilt

Dpoy
1. Russell
2. Wilt (these two untouched for a while)
3. Sauldsberry (made hawks better and warriors worse after departure and arrival on defense).

[penbeast0]

Just one note. Philly with Wilt and Saulsberry, your #2 and #3, still wasn't that close to Boston defensively so either Russell is that much better than everyone else in the league (a very defensible position) or either Wilt or Woody is being overrated a bit.

[Top10alltime]

Just one note. Philly with Wilt and Saulsberry, your #2 and #3, still wasn't that close to Boston defensively so either Russell is that much better than everyone else in the league (a very defensible position) or either Wilt or Woody is being overrated a bit.

Sauldsberry played with the hawks this season, as mentioned in my note for him.