Retro Player of the Year 1961-62 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[penbeast0]

True, I phrased it badly. No question in my mind that Wilt is the better offensive player/ I'm just saying that his impact on the game is less than his unique and amazing offensive numbers as shown by team offensive ratings and therefore I have Russell's impact as greater. Greatest individual talent of all time v. greatest team impact player of all time.

[ZeppelinPage]

I'm not sure how well that '62 team fit Wilt's playstyle. The only shooter in that lineup was Arizin, and most of the players on the team weren't very strong offensive players. Difficult to have an elite offense when most of the roster is lacking in offensive talent.

I think, if anything, Wilt raised a likely bottom offense to a +0.9 rORtg. This is supported by the fact that the year before he arrived the Warriors were literally last in ORtg.

I think that team was capped in what it could do on the offensive side of the ball because of the talent. There is only so much a player can raise the level of their team if most of the roster doesn't measure up.

This is why I agree with Frank McGuire's strategy for that '62 team. McGuire was quite respected and viewed as an intelligent coach. I think he realized the lack of offensive talent and tried to get the most out of Wilt as a scorer. He came in and immediately had Guy Rodgers shoot less and focus on passing/defense more to give more looks for Wilt. The fact of the matter is that the Warriors were a buzzer away from quite possibly the biggest upset in NBA history.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Bill Russell - MVP, 2nd-Team All-NBA. Led an outlier defense. Still I had a super tough time taking him at #1 this time. The reason I did is looking at the original POY thread and Regul8r's posts, the composite box scores hide the fact that Russell played Wilt at least close to a draw in which case the tiebreaker goes to the guy on the better team that won the title. 18.9/23.6/4.5 on 48.9 5TS (+1.0 rTS) in the RS then 22.4/26.4/5.0 on 51.9 %TS (+4.0 rTS) in the PS. He seriously took his game up another notch and the Celtics needed every drop of his sweat to win the title. The Game 7 in the EDF and Game 7 in the Finals came down to one possession.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Just a historic season and I feel bad not choosing it at #1. I feel like if Wilt somehow won the title it would be unanimous and one of the GOAT seasons (if not the GOAT season) in NBA history. 1st Team All-NBA. 50.4/25.7/2.4 on 53.6 %TS (+5.7 rTS) in the RS then 35.0/26.6/3.1 on 50.8 %TS (+2.9 rTS) in the PS. He had a nice 56/35 in a decisive Game 5 to close out the Nationals. And yet when the dust cleared, he didn't dominate Russell in the most important series. The 22-point Game 7 is disappointing. I know he was playing defense and doing other things but not going for more is a letdown in a legacy-defining game.

3. Elgin Baylor - Missed 34 games but Lakers played at a 60-win pace with him in the lineup. 1st Team All-NBA. Missed too many games and lacks defensive impact to be a serious contender for higher up the list. 38.3/18.6/4.6 on 49.2 %TS (+1.3 rTS) in the RS then 38.6/17.7/3.6 on 50.3 %TS (+2.4 rTS) in the PS. That's some seriously great volume scoring. And Baylor was also rebounding and running the offense. Oh and he scored a still standing record of 61 points in a Finals game against Bill Russell and the Celtics.

4. Oscar Robertson - 1st Team All-NBA. Once again led the best offense in the league and not exactly his fault his team sucked on defense. Lost to a mediocre Pistons team in the first round. 30.8/12.5/11.4 on 55.4 %TS (+7.5 rTS) in the RS then 28.8/11.0/11.0 on 58.6 %TS (+10.7 rTS). Lack of team success prevents him from getting higher up the list but he's as great an offensive player as any we've had in history. The combination of volume, efficiency and playmaking is insane quite frankly.

5. Jerry West - 1st Team All-NBA. Played second fiddle to Baylor but definitely a star in his own right. 30.8/7.9/5.4 on 52.4 %TS (+4.5 rTS) in the RS then 31.5/6.8/4.4 on 54.4 %TS (+6.5 rTS) in the PS.

HM: Bob Pettit - Tough to leave out but team was so so bad and competition is super strong this year.

OPOY

1. Oscar Robertson - The combination of volume, efficiency and playmaking is insane quite frankly. GOAT level offensive player.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - Lack of playmaking but unmatched scoring volume with moderate efficiency.

3. Elgin Baylor - Quite inefficient compared to Wilt.

DPOY

1. Bill Russell

2. Wilt Chamberlain

3. Red Kerr - Anchored the #2 defense in league in Syracuse.

[Owly]

I'm not sure how well that '62 team fit Wilt's playstyle. The only shooter in that lineup was Arizin ...

Using FT% as an imperfect, but probably our best, proxy ...

That's closer to the truth of '60 with Johnson and Sauldsberry in addition to Rodgers, though even there ... it depends on your standard...

Attles is around now and at only .592 (and whilst worse than his career norm of .632, not wildly so) that's awful for a guard ... Rodgers has been covered ... and that is two starters and guards ... whether you cut the rotation off at 6, 7 or 8 everyone else is above .740 (RS) that year. There is a minutes dropoff at 6 so ignoring Wilt 2/5s being bad shooters ... isn't great, worse if you grant that the surroundee is the center ... . Meschery's number that year is a little flukey versus career but he's still okay nobody else is immediately popping as falsely seeming okay.

As I say it depends where you're saying a "shooter" is. FT% suggests there are some average (or better) shooters on that team.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Sorry I missed the last vote! Not really in a basketball mood right now.

1 - Bill Russell

Best defender easy MVP and wins again. I get why people might want to go Wilt but the Celtics being that bad without their guy makes me wonder just how real Wilt carrying the Warriors against a superteam is and it feels kind of harsh to take it away from Russell just for that. Kind of feel I'd vote Wilt if those 2 points went the other way so I'm still kind of eh on all this.

2 - Wilt

If he's not 1 I guess he needs to be 2. Lakers made it further maybe but they did the same thing facing the same guys so I don't know that really matters.

3 - Elgin Baylor

So the team seems to need him more than West and Lakers were really good when he was good to hoop. Pretty great stats even though everyone seems to have great stats besides the guy at 1. Gotta get something for going to 7 with the best team ever at this point.

4 - Oscar

Hes the one guy not yet listed with stats that match Baylor and a weird number of guys from around when he played think hes the GOAT. Basketball Reference says his team had the best attack and that might be because of the 30 point triple double Oscar was dishing.

5 - Jerry West

Looks like the Lakers were lots better with him too and 30/7/5 is nothing to sneeze at.

Going to skip the other votes for now if thats okay.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, Ardee, eminence, One_and_Done, LA Bird, IlikeShaiGuys, and trelos. Djoker, AEnigma, trelos, Dutchball97, and Dr. Positivity voted for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1961-62 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Oscar Robertson (2) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Oscar Robertson    5   0   0    25     1.000
2. Jerry West    0   3   0    9     0.360
3. Wilt Chamberlain   0    1    3     6    0.240
4. Elgin Baylor   0   1   2     5    0.200

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (6) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   5    0    0     25     1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain   0   5   0    15    0.600
3. Red Kerr    0    0    3      3    0.120
4. Tom Sanders   0   0   2    2    0.080

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell (4) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  11  0  0  0  0   110    1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain  0  11  0  0  0   77  0.700
3. Oscar Robertson   0  0  8  3  0   49    0.445
4. Jerry West    0  0  1  5  5   25    0.227
5. Elgin Baylor  0  0  2  3  4   23   0.209
6. Bob Pettit    0  0  0  0  2   2    0.018

In the prior project, there were 12 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 21 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  18  3  0  0  0   201    0.957
2. Wilt Chamberlain  3  18  0  0  0   156   0.743
3. Oscar Robertson   0  0  16  5  0   95     0.452
4. Elgin Baylor    0  0  4  9  5   52    0.248
5. Jerry West  0  0  1  6  12   35   0.167
6. Bob Pettit    0  0  0  1  4    7   0.033

1963 thread will open shortly.

[Top10alltime]

Guys I want to share my thoughts on 1961-62.

1. Wilt chamberlain: Ridiculous that realgm considered this szn unanimous when clearly it is debate. He is top 2 opoy and top 2 dpoy.

The people are saying west is better even tho it is clearly Baylor who did better postseason offensively. He anchored the #2 offense with +2.1 according to Taylor's stats, wilt chamberlain dominance 33.6 IA pts/75. Very efficient offensive game and also he is top 2 dpoy. Astonishing defense in PO, don't understand how warriors were better than celtics by 3 points on defense, - 7.4 defense anchored. Adjusted stats show pace adjusted wilts team outplay celtics

2. Russell: This is top 3 russell season imo, did amazing in reg season, not deserved MVP but anchored great defense in RS, disappointed that wilt anchored better PO defense. He was best player in close finals series either that or Baylor. Great RS, but PO he faced warriors w injured Tom gola, so russell is second for me and it is locked in for me.

Stats: 18.9/23.6/4.5 on +1.0 rTS in the RS then 22.4/26.4/5.0 on +4.0 rTS in the PO.

3. Baylor: This is peak Baylor, I know I said Robertson is that guy when he makes the PO, but Baylor, Robertson, Russell, and Wilt all improved from the prior season. Wilt has incredible two way season, Russ has one of his top 3 seasons, then Baylor has outlier PO and RS (for him).

He is 2nd best scorer in RS, 38 points per game in both, has ridiculous finals. 30.9 IA pts/75 on +3.9 rTS, also his team, w +3.1 ORTG in that finals for team. Team was slightly worse when West played vs Baylor playing only, but his postseason has him for #3 OPOY and ahead of Oscar in ballot, also better PO performance.

4. Oscar Robertson: Really good, and I am not lying, but it is not until next season does he get over the hump (no diddy), really great he had triple double, top offense in RS, and 2nd in PO. 3.9, and 3.2 offenses, triple double. Incredible offense, top 1 OPOY.

He averages triple double in PO, with great efficiency, and that was repeat of RS. He is GOAT level offensive player. He could have got farther in PO though.

5. West: I don't have much to say, he is just 2nd fiddle to Baylor but he is HM for OPOY, and Lakers were bit better with him than Baylor. PO it is clearly Baylor.

OPOY:
1. Oscar
2. Wilt
3. Baylor

DPOY:
1. Russell
2. Wilt (next year I need to think abt)
3. Kerr