How good is the case for KG over Magic/Bird All-Time?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think the only thing that holds back KG is the question of him leading a team to a title as the clear building block even if he's not the team's leading scorer(which doesn't really matter to me). I personally and I think quite a few others do question his intangibles and leadership in the Minn years. Which is somewhat connected to all the 1st rd exits as well. With Bird and Magic the results speak for themselves. With KG there's a degree of gray area imo which can't really be explained away with rapm or with the Boston years.

KG was the best player on a champion even though Paul Pierce was very good and Ray Allen and Rondo were good.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think the only thing that holds back KG is the question of him leading a team to a title as the clear building block even if he's not the team's leading scorer(which doesn't really matter to me). I personally and I think quite a few others do question his intangibles and leadership in the Minn years. Which is somewhat connected to all the 1st rd exits as well. With Bird and Magic the results speak for themselves. With KG there's a degree of gray area imo which can't really be explained away with rapm or with the Boston years.

KG was the best player on a champion even though Paul Pierce was very good and Ray Allen and Rondo were good.

I think we all know that. That was a 31 year old KG who had matured and was sort of on a mission to finally win something with both Paul and Ray who had never accomplished much either in the post season. So it all came together for them in 08. That's not really the same situation he had in Minny or might have had on other teams in his earlier years.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think the only thing that holds back KG is the question of him leading a team to a title as the clear building block even if he's not the team's leading scorer(which doesn't really matter to me). I personally and I think quite a few others do question his intangibles and leadership in the Minn years. Which is somewhat connected to all the 1st rd exits as well. With Bird and Magic the results speak for themselves. With KG there's a degree of gray area imo which can't really be explained away with rapm or with the Boston years.

KG was the best player on a champion even though Paul Pierce was very good and Ray Allen and Rondo were good.

I think we all know that. That was a 31 year old KG who had matured and was sort of on a mission to finally win something with both Paul and Ray who had never accomplished much either in the post season. So it all came together for them in 08. That's not really the same situation he had in Minny or might have had on other teams in his earlier years.

Maybe I should remember you since we are probably the only 2 users with “since” in our names.

I was a fan of Bagley and John Garris when they were at Boston College. But those years of Cavs giving Lakers their draft picks were dark years for the Cavs.

[Warspite]

I think the only thing that holds back KG is the question of him leading a team to a title as the clear building block even if he's not the team's leading scorer(which doesn't really matter to me). I personally and I think quite a few others do question his intangibles and leadership in the Minn years. Which is somewhat connected to all the 1st rd exits as well. With Bird and Magic the results speak for themselves. With KG there's a degree of gray area imo which can't really be explained away with rapm or with the Boston years.

KG was the best player on a champion even though Paul Pierce was very good and Ray Allen and Rondo were good.

IMHO this is the example of what makes KG so overrated. For KG to win he needs to be a 3rd option type player offensively and a defensive stalwart. He is closer to a rich mans Ben Wallace than he is a poor mans Tim Duncan. KGs defense=Durants offense and vis versa. Spectacular and historic but not transformational because they are too 1 dimensional.

To win with KG you have to find 2 max contract franchise #1 options (Durant/Beal or Paul George/Kawhi)

For Magic he needs a #1 option scorer and he can turn your 3d guys into all stars.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think the only thing that holds back KG is the question of him leading a team to a title as the clear building block even if he's not the team's leading scorer(which doesn't really matter to me). I personally and I think quite a few others do question his intangibles and leadership in the Minn years. Which is somewhat connected to all the 1st rd exits as well. With Bird and Magic the results speak for themselves. With KG there's a degree of gray area imo which can't really be explained away with rapm or with the Boston years.

KG was the best player on a champion even though Paul Pierce was very good and Ray Allen and Rondo were good.

IMHO this is the example of what makes KG so overrated. For KG to win he needs to be a 3rd option type player offensively and a defensive stalwart. He is closer to a rich mans Ben Wallace than he is a poor mans Tim Duncan. KGs defense=Durants offense and vis versa. Spectacular and historic but not transformational because they are too 1 dimensional.

To win with KG you have to find 2 max contract franchise #1 options (Durant/Beal or Paul George/Kawhi)

For Magic he needs a #1 option scorer and he can turn your 3d guys into all stars.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

Celtic drafted Bird with the 6th pick in 1978. Everybody knew Bird was the best player in the draft but they would not draft Bird because Bird had an option of not signing with the team that drafted him in 1978 and instead signing with a team that drafted him in 1979.

Duncan’s offense was not that great. Duncan reminds me more of Robert Parish than Duncan reminds me of anybody else.

I do greatly appreciate Duncan’s rim protection which was considerably better than KG’s shot blocking. One factor in KG not blocking shots as well as Duncan was that KG was not playing center where as Duncan was playing center more than half of the time. Power forwards get dragged away from the paint more than centers get dragged away from the paint.

Subjective things like Bill Russell’s and Bird’s leadership bug me because they are subjective. Leadership may be real. Bird was the toughest most relentless big man that I ever saw and I think Bird inspired his teammates to play harder.

[OhayoKD]

0 to me. Probably the most overrated player that made the Hall of Fame. Although to his credit he deserves to be there.

KG doesnt even have one signature standout individual moment in his entire playoff career as far as I'm concerned.

There's literally a far more overrated one in this same thread

Did you forget either of the 2004 series?

.

Yes, because what KG needed to win in 2008 is what KG needed to win in 2004 when he was by any reality-based approach authoring all-time carry job after all-time carry job as the clear 1 on offense and defense on a team that twice went winless without him in actual games.

That a diminished version of himself immediately delivered given a strong cast in a completely different role should probably put to doubt what the better versions were capable of for anyone acting in good faith.

It does not matter whether you go by 8-12 minute stretches, full games, rapm, or whatever. Any approach with a direct tie to winning besides pretending basketball is an individual sport suggests the way KG improved teams warrants a much higher rating than where he is ranked consensus wise.

Unless you have a reason to think the person who won immediately given a serious opportunity's way of impacting basketball games magically fails to translate on title-level teams (despite kg-esque players having the best track-record both in terms of team-improvement and team-success), you're talking to talk.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

And yet, somehow, the player who "just wins" repeatedly failed to win, at a similar point in his career to where KG was at 2008, with a team that nearly made the conference finals without him.

This is why Bird is the actual overrated one here. People just invent narratives with no basis in reality outside of wildly cherrypicked clips and data-points. Bird played his whole career on good to loaded teams and mostly failed because his limitations were incessantly exploited on both ends of the floor in the games that really mattered.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

There's literally a far more overrated one in this same thread

Did you forget either of the 2004 series

Who....Bird or Magic?

What did he do in the 04 playoffs that was so memorable? Barely beat Sacramento with CWebb hobbling around on one of two healthy legs? Wasn't all that efficient either, although he did pick it up in other facets.

Then vs LA he absolutely got shut down by 40 yr old Karl Malone with his season on the line in game 6. Was forced far away from the rim taking that low fg% fadeaway jumper that could never consistently draw fouls and get him to the line. With Cassell out.....fewer FGAs than aging Spree.

Moved to Boston surreounded by all that talent and was part of the most underwhelming playoff run to a title of any team I've ever seen.

[BmanInBigD]

Only on RealGM.

In a gym: No case
In an all-time NBA Draft: no case
On a scoreboard: No case
Resume: No case
On tape: No case
Playing 1on1: No case
On a spreadsheet made up by people who never made a FT: He has a valid case.

“Only nerds with spreadsheets care about defense.”

-Casual fans


Edit: You actually think prime Magic would beat KG 1-on-1? And you think you know ball, LOL. I would literally bet my house against this proposition.

LOL, wtf does 1-on-1 have to do with playing professional b-ball? Garnett is not in the same tier with Magic and Bird. No, he has no case. I’m 65 years old and I’ve seen a million games of all of them. No, he has no case.

[BmanInBigD]

0 to me. Probably the most overrated player that made the Hall of Fame. Although to his credit he deserves to be there.

KG doesnt even have one signature standout individual moment in his entire playoff career as far as I'm concerned.

There's literally a far more overrated one in this same thread

Did you forget either of the 2004 series?

Yes, because what KG needed to win in 2008 is what KG needed to win in 2004 when he was by any reality-based approach authoring all-time carry job after all-time carry job as the clear 1 on offense and defense on a team that twice went winless without him in actual games.

That a diminished version of himself immediately delivered given a strong cast in a completely different role should probably put to doubt what the better versions were capable of for anyone acting in good faith.

It does not matter whether you go by 8-12 minute stretches, full games, rapm, or whatever. Any approach with a direct tie to winning besides pretending basketball is an individual sport suggests the way KG improved teams warrants a much higher rating than where he is ranked consensus wise.

Unless you have a reason to think the person who won immediately given a serious opportunity's way of impacting basketball games magically fails to translate on title-level teams (despite kg-esque players having the best track-record both in terms of team-improvement and team-success), you're talking to talk.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

And yet, somehow, the player who "just wins" repeatedly failed to win, at a similar point in his career to where KG was at 2008, with a team that nearly made the conference finals without him.

This is why Bird is the actual overrated one here. People just invent narratives with no basis in reality outside of wildly cherrypicked clips and data-points. Bird played his whole career on good to loaded teams and mostly failed because his limitations were incessantly exploited on both ends of the floor in the games that really mattered.

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a worse take. KG always had these great advanced stats, but they never amounted to anything until he was playing with players arguably as good as him. RAPM, etc doesn’t mean squat if it doesn’t win games, playoff series, rings, etc.

[OhayoKD]

0 to me. Probably the most overrated player that made the Hall of Fame. Although to his credit he deserves to be there.

KG doesnt even have one signature standout individual moment in his entire playoff career as far as I'm concerned.

There's literally a far more overrated one in this same thread

Did you forget either of the 2004 series?

Yes, because what KG needed to win in 2008 is what KG needed to win in 2004 when he was by any reality-based approach authoring all-time carry job after all-time carry job as the clear 1 on offense and defense on a team that twice went winless without him in actual games.

That a diminished version of himself immediately delivered given a strong cast in a completely different role should probably put to doubt what the better versions were capable of for anyone acting in good faith.

It does not matter whether you go by 8-12 minute stretches, full games, rapm, or whatever. Any approach with a direct tie to winning besides pretending basketball is an individual sport suggests the way KG improved teams warrants a much higher rating than where he is ranked consensus wise.

Unless you have a reason to think the person who won immediately given a serious opportunity's way of impacting basketball games magically fails to translate on title-level teams (despite kg-esque players having the best track-record both in terms of team-improvement and team-success), you're talking to talk.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

And yet, somehow, the player who "just wins" repeatedly failed to win, at a similar point in his career to where KG was at 2008, with a team that nearly made the conference finals without him.

This is why Bird is the actual overrated one here. People just invent narratives with no basis in reality outside of wildly cherrypicked clips and data-points. Bird played his whole career on good to loaded teams and mostly failed because his limitations were incessantly exploited on both ends of the floor in the games that really mattered.

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a worse take. KG always had these great advanced stats

"they went winless without him multiple times" is literally about as raw as a "stat" you get. What are you talking about?

but they never amounted to anything until he was playing with players arguably as good as him.

They amounted to teams improving with him by a massive margin and then amounted to immediately winning a title with the only good cast of his prime, well past his peak.


You can forget "rapm", by literal "winning games" KG is in the short list of short lists unless for some reason you decide teams winning at a much higher clip with KG does not reflect well on KG.

[homecourtloss]

0 to me. Probably the most overrated player that made the Hall of Fame. Although to his credit he deserves to be there.

KG doesnt even have one signature standout individual moment in his entire playoff career as far as I'm concerned.

There's literally a far more overrated one in this same thread

Did you forget either of the 2004 series?

Yes, because what KG needed to win in 2008 is what KG needed to win in 2004 when he was by any reality-based approach authoring all-time carry job after all-time carry job as the clear 1 on offense and defense on a team that twice went winless without him in actual games.

That a diminished version of himself immediately delivered given a strong cast in a completely different role should probably put to doubt what the better versions were capable of for anyone acting in good faith.

It does not matter whether you go by 8-12 minute stretches, full games, rapm, or whatever. Any approach with a direct tie to winning besides pretending basketball is an individual sport suggests the way KG improved teams warrants a much higher rating than where he is ranked consensus wise.

Unless you have a reason to think the person who won immediately given a serious opportunity's way of impacting basketball games magically fails to translate on title-level teams (despite kg-esque players having the best track-record both in terms of team-improvement and team-success), you're talking to talk.

For Bird well he just wins. You put Larry Bird on the current Detroit Pistons and they look like contenders. Maybe Red Auerbach was the GOAT GM or maybe well you just find players with chips on their shoulders who want to win (Parrish/DJ/Tiny) and you draft versatile defenders who can switch with soft hands and you add a former MVP who others say is washed up and bang your winning titles.

And yet, somehow, the player who "just wins" repeatedly failed to win, at a similar point in his career to where KG was at 2008, with a team that nearly made the conference finals without him.

This is why Bird is the actual overrated one here. People just invent narratives with no basis in reality outside of wildly cherrypicked clips and data-points. Bird played his whole career on good to loaded teams and mostly failed because his limitations were incessantly exploited on both ends of the floor in the games that really mattered.

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a worse take. KG always had these great advanced stats, but they never amounted to anything until he was playing with players arguably as good as him. RAPM, etc doesn’t mean squat if it doesn’t win games, playoff series, rings, etc.

Is this satire?

[tsherkin]

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a worse take. KG always had these great advanced stats, but they never amounted to anything until he was playing with players arguably as good as him. RAPM, etc doesn’t mean squat if it doesn’t win games, playoff series, rings, etc.

What's your opinion on Jordan from 85-88, out of curiosity?

[Morb]

These old overrated guys played in dominant teams like Russell/Bird/Magic/Jordan))
When you playing against bums/lonely star – you're King.)
Garnett was Great 1on1 player, he's would win vs Bird/Magic.