where does wilt Chamberlain rank among all time defensive peaks?

[ty 4191]

Playoffs: Career vs. Wilt

PTS/G RB/G AS/G FG% Games
Russell 24.9 24.7 4.9 0.417 49
Bellamy 20 15.9 3 0.434 10
Embry 6 3.4 1 0.402 14
Reed 20.5 10.1 2.4 0.505 17
Beaty 18.3 10.5 1.8 0.429 12
Pettit 21.1 13.9 2.1 0.417 7
Lucas 15.8 12.9 3.4 0.473 18
Schayes 17.6 11.1 1.8 0.387 11
Thurmond 21.4 15.5 4.1 0.37 17
Jabaar 29.7 17.4 4.5 0.466 11

Averages/Totals 19.5 13.5 2.9 0.430 166

Playoffs Wilt Averages vs. HOFers

Wilt PT/G Wilt RB/G Wilt AS/G Wilt FG%
Russell 28 25.7 4.1 0.508
Bellamy 23.3 22.2 5.5 0.523
Embry 24.6 24.2 7.7 0.504
Reed 22.4 19.4 4.8 0.575
Beaty 30.5 24.3 3.1 0.577
Pettit 38.6 23.4 3.9 0.559
Lucas 21.9 21 5.6 0.558
Schayes 37.5 24.3 2.7 0.474
Thurmond 12.5 25.3 4.4 0.542
Jabaar 19.1 15.9 2.7 0.478

Averages 25.8 22.6 4.4 0.530

HOFers vs. Kareem Playoffs

PTS/G RB/G AS/G BLK/G FG% Games Played
Artis Gilmore 17.7 11 2 2 0.615 9
Robert Parish 14.8 9 1.4 1.4 0.495 26
Hakeem Olajuwon 31 11.2 4 4 0.52 5
Wilt Chamberlain 29.7 17.4 4.5 0.466 11
Bill Walton 9.2 7.1 2.6 1.1 0.556 9
Ralph Sampson 20.4 8.8 4 2.2 0.553 5
Moses Malone 28.1 7.9 2.4 1.6 0.51 7
Willis Reed 27.8 12.2 3 0.54 5
Dave Cowens 22.7 9.9 4.6 0.3 0.439 7
Jack Sikma 13.2 8.5 4.2 0.479 13
Nate Thurmond 18.5 12.4 3.8 0.411 16
Dan Issel 14.4 6 4.8 0.6 0.474 8
Wes Unseld 19 15 4 0.397 4

Averages/Totals 20.6 10.5 3.5 1.7 0.497 125

Kareem Playoffs vs. HOFers

PTS/G RB/G AS/G BLK/G FG%
Artis Gilmore 23.2 6.4 2.1 2.7 0.552
Robert Parish 24.3 10.5 3.2 2.4 0.533
Hakeem Olajuwon 27 6.8 3.4 2.4 0.496
Wilt Chamberlain 29.7 17.4 4.5 0.466
Bill Walton 26.1 10.8 2.1 3.2 0.581
Ralph Sampson 27 6.8 3.4 2.4 0.496
Moses Malone 24.9 11.4 3.4 2.4 0.508
Willis Reed 34.2 17.8 4.8 0.552
Dave Cowens 32.6 12.4 5.4 0.6 0.524
Jack Sikma 29.1 12.3 4.1 0.559
Nate Thurmond 24.4 16.9 2.6 0.438
Dan Issel 23 9.8 4.8 3 0.544
Wes Unseld 27 18.5 2.8 0.605

Averages 27.1 12.1 3.6 2.4 0.527

Wilt outshot his Hall of Fame opponents by 100 points. Kareem, 30 points.

Wilt was a better defensive player than Kareem by a longshot.

[Rastas]

Wilt was the hardest to score against when fully engaged on Defence.

[ty 4191]

Wilt had GOAT level defense, once he started focusing on defense and passing.

Most Defensive Win Shares, 1966-1973:

Wilt: 52.4
Havlicek: 43.3
Thurmond: 39.9
Russell: 38.3
DeBusschere: 36.8

[70sFan]

Why of course is Russell better?

Higher motor, more consistent effort, more mobile and willing to defend perimeter, better P&R defender, slightly better defensive rebounder (Wilt is GOAT-level offensive rebounder).

I like that you support Thurmond by the way. I have him only slightly behind Wilt, up there with anyone but my top 3.

Better motor/more consistent effort? Wilt ran the floor and played both ends of the court, hard. As hard as anyone.Just one sample (amazing definition and restoration here).

Please watch these:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

PS: Huge supporter of Thurmond here, too. One of of the greatest rebounders/shot blockers/physical specimens ever. Amazing video here, where (among many other amazing testimonials,, Wilt himself says "Nate Thurmond was one of the best defe players and physical specimens ever, and he played me as well as Bill Russell. His incredible long arms were longer than mine!." Alex Hannum breaks down his skills and achievements, as does Nate himself!

Watch on YouTube

No question, Wilt had amazing motor in his prime. His offensive load limited his defensive consistency though, which was my point. His bigger frame also made his movement more exhausting than in Russell's case.

Don't worry, I don't use it as a knock on Wilt. Russell is one of the most active defenders ever, I think only Hakeem could rival him in this aspect among centers.

[coastalmarker99]

Kareem's defensive peak from 1971 to 1974 was amazing as well.

As he anchored some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history from '71 thru '74.

I mean just look at his Bucks' team defences from '71 thru '74. They were miles ahead of their peers.


In 1971 his Bucks team not only outscored their opponents by +12.2 ppg, but they also outshot them by a record differential of .085 (.50.9 to .42.4..) And, they were even more dominant in that post-season.

They went 12-2, outscored their opposing teams by a record +14.5 ppg, and outshot them by a record .102 differential (.49.7 to .39.5.)



Thus this is why I always have said that Kareem's was at his peak from 1971 to 1974.


The numbers don't lie.

He was not only a much more unstoppable scorer in those years, but a better rebounder (especially considering the quality of his peers in those seasons), and a much better defensive presence.



In the 20 games that Oscar missed in the 1972 regular season.


Kareem averaged 39.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 5.6 apg on 58.7 %FG/73.7 %FT

That's insane!

You won't find many if any 20-game stretches more dominant than that in NBA history.

Included there was a 50-pointer on Wilt and two 50-pointers on Dave Cowens.

[ty 4191]

If we look at Kareem vs. HOF Centers in the Playoffs, 1970-1974:

Versus:

Wilt: 29.7/17.4/4.5 (.466 FG%) (11 Games)
Thurmond: 24.4/16.9/2.9 (.438 FG%) (16 Games)
Reed: 34.2/17.8/4.8 (.552 FG%) (5 Games)
Cowens: 32.6/12.1/5.4 (.524 FG%) (7 Games)
Unseld: 27.0/18.5/2.8 (.605 FG%) (4 Games)

Averages: 29.7/16.5/4.1/.517

Them vs. Him:
Wilt: 19.1/15.9/2.7/.478
Thurmond: 18.5/12.4/3.8/.411
Reed: 27.8/12.2/3.0/.540
Cowens: 22.7/9.9/4.6/.439
Unseld: 19.0/15.0/5.8/.397

Averages: 21.4/13.0/.453

Total domination. Only Reed held his own (sort of) against peak Kareem.

Kareem played 57 playoff games those years. 44 were against HOF Centers.

Astounding.

[eminence]

Wilt had GOAT level defense, once he started focusing on defense and passing.

Most Defensive Win Shares, 1966-1973:

Wilt: 52.4
Havlicek: 43.3
Thurmond: 39.9
Russell: 38.3
DeBusschere: 36.8

I agree Wilt was a better defender over that period, but DWS don't really tell us anything other than that Wilt was a huge volume rebounder. His average in healthy seasons was very slightly lower from '60-'65 (6.9 DWS/season vs 7.3/season).

[ty 4191]

I agree Wilt was a better defender over that period, but DWS don't really tell us anything other than that Wilt was a huge volume rebounder. His average in healthy seasons was very slightly lower from '60-'65 (6.9 DWS/season vs 7.3/season).

Look at how he did head to head against 13 HOFers across 828 games. For one, he outshot them by 100 points.

That tells you all we need to know about his defensive value and skill.

[feyki]

First instinct, stealing from 70sFans list (apologies if I forget anyone).

I'd have him behind Russell, Duncan, KG, Green. Ahead of Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, KAJ, Mourning, Howard, Gobert, Walton, Ewing, and Wallace. If including him (I usually leave him as an HM) I'd probably have him behind Mikan.

So 5th or 6th for me.

Behind Garnett and Draymond . Really?

Top 5 to top 10. Russell,Wallace,Hakeem and Robinson were better than him, to me. But then he's in the debate with Thurmond,Walton,Duncan and maybe Howard and Gobert.

[Samurai]

Why of course is Russell better?

And both Chamberlain and Russell have been quoted as saying Thurmond was as good a defender as they were.

As a man defender in the low post, my eye test would agree. Of the centers I've seen, Big Nate was as good or better of a man defender as any big. It was as a help defender that I would give Wilt and (especially) Russell the edge. Russell was the best help defender for a big that I've ever seen, particularly in terms of not only playing out on the perimeter, switching onto smaller players, and yet somehow still managing to swoop into the lane to grab the rebound. His quickness and motor were insane.

[jalengreen]

I think defensive rebounding has to be considered part of defense. The defense played before & on the shot loses value if the offense retains possession anyway. A player who can consistently limit offensive rebounding is limiting the offense's possibility for second chance points, thus adding to the defensive value.

[HeartBreakKid]

I always found the "it's confusing if defensive rebounding and offensive rebounding is defense or offense" to be a prime example of overthinking (underthinking?) something.

It's literally in their names what they are.

[Jokicoverrated]

spam