Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Kareem
2 - Wilt
3 - Nate Thurmond
4 - Walt Frazier
5 - Artis Gilmore

Was thinking about Wilt for 1. If Russell can keep winning POY's just on stopping other guys, why can't Wilt? But Bucks defense was as good and to be honest pushing Wilt and Jerry West on his own sorta settles it for me. Thurmond maybe outplaying Kareem after playing great defense and carrying a 50-win team is kind of an auto-vote for me honestly.

Gilmore had kind of a crazy year winning ROY and MVP so I'll vote him.

Offensive POY
1 - Kareem
2- Frazier
3 - Wilt

Defensive POY
1 - Wilt
2 - Thurmond
3- Kareem

[70sFan]

I hear a lot about how the ABA was so much weaker than the NBA. Maybe for the first couple of years, but by 72 it was probably just as good.

The Spurs and Nuggets are the proof of that. They both transitioned to the NBA and performed just as good if not better. The Spurs from 74-76 won 45, 51 and 50 games, and from 77-79 in the NBA they won 44, 52 and 48. That’s basically identical, and their SRS is just as good if not better (their best SRS season was 79). Moreover, they did all that in the NBA with their 2nd best player James Silas destroyed by injuries. In 77 Silas got hurt, and he was never the same again. He only played 22 and 37 games in his first 2 NBA seasons. In 1976 Silas was 2nd in the MVP vote, and in the all-ABA first team. In 1979 he was a 16 ppg player who gave you 27mpg; a shell of his former self. For the Spurs to come to the NBA and perform just as well, if not better, despite Silas injury suggests that the ABA was actually the stronger league.

The Pacers dropped from a 60 win team to a 50 win team when they got to the NBA, but they also lost 5 time all-star Ralph Simpson. Some of that drop may also just be an experienced team pacing themselves.

Of course, that was 1976, not 1972, so why bring it up? Well, we actually have a good baseline for comparing 1976 to 1972, because the Pacers were the 1972 champs. They won 47 games that year, and won 51, 46, 45 and 39 games the following 4 seasons. The 39 win season coming after they lost superstar George McGinnis (and ABA MVP Mel Daniels, who had left in 75). Otherwise, the 72 team was pretty similar personnel wise to the 75 team. They were built around stars McGinnis & Mel Daniels, with similar support casts around them. McGinnis was better in 75 than he was as a 21 year old in 72, but that only enhances the argument that the ABA was just as strong in 72 as say 75 or 76.

There were more big guys you can name and who have made the HoF in the NBA, but that’s not the measure of how strong a league is. The ABA was as strong as the NBA from 72 to 76, regardless of who had the “most recognisable name big men”.

1972 and 1977 Pacers teams were completely different, Spurs didn't even exist back then and Chaparrals had little in common with a team that transitioned to the NBA.

Even 1972 and 1975 Pacers teams were not built the same just because they had McGinnis. They didn't have Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, most of their roleplayers were different...

I think 1972 is the first year the ABA could compete with the NBA, but the league was still shallower talent-wise and that remained true for the rest of the ABA history. That doesn't make ABA players accomplishments irrelevant or unimpressive, far from it. That's why we consistently see ABA players on ballots.

There is nothing controversial about the fact that Gilmore and Beaty faced weaker competition at their position in the ABA though. It's very clear when you look at their NBA careers. The idea that Beaty was better than Chamberlain never materialised when they played in the same league. I can see picking Zelmo over some of weaker Wilt post-prime year, but 1972 is excellent by all accounts. Rookie Gilmore also doesn't have much of a case over him, despite huge boxscore stats.

Again, I appreciate your foundness of ABA players but I feel like it's more about leaving 1960s players from your ballot than anything else. It's not surprising that you didn't mention someone like Rick Barry, who had a hell of a season in the ABA - cause Rick is a 1960s player after all.

[One_and_Done]

I think it's kind of odd to think 35 year old, almost out of the league Wilt was the second best player in the league. People are being swayed too much by a 69 win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Lakers had. The footage of 72 Wilt I've seen is alarmingly slow and lacking stamina (watch how long it takes him to get back up the court after a defensive possession for eg). How are people putting him 2nd when they didn't have him nearly that high in many subsequent years? Looks like winning bias to me.

I doubt very much 35 yr old creaky Wilt was impacting games as much as young Gilmore.

[LA Bird]

I think it's kind of odd to think 35 year old, almost out of the league Wilt was the second best player in the league.

Guess it's also odd to think 35 year old, almost out of the league Russell and Jordan were the best players in the league. Who knew evaluating players was as easy as just looking up their ages. The funny thing is that you rank Beaty above Wilt but Beaty declined faster and was washed out of the league while Wilt had a 3 year contract and only retired because of legal reasons.

People are being swayed too much by a 69 win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Lakers had.

As opposed to you being swayed too much by Beaty's 59* win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Stars had? They were so stacked they literally had their All Star from the previous year (Ron Boone) coming off the bench.

The footage of 72 Wilt I've seen is alarmingly slow and lacking stamina (watch how long it takes him to get back up the court after a defensive possession for eg).

Your point would be stronger if you post the footage instead of just describing it.

How are people putting him 2nd when they didn't have him nearly that high in many subsequent years?

How are people ranking a player higher when they have a better season? Beats me.

[OhayoKD]

People are being swayed too much by a 69 win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Lakers had.

As opposed to you being swayed too much by Beaty's 59* win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Stars had? They were so stacked they literally had their All Star from the previous year (Ron Boone) coming off the bench.

Eh...Ron Boone was an 8th man when he joined the Los Angeles Stars and before that averaged the 5th most minutes on a -2 srs team. Seems like a bit of an unearned all-star nod.

Think the more pertinent point to make would be the Stars making the finals before he got there (granted with a couple of starters missing half the year they looked average in the regular season).

For the Lakers, 47-wins functionally losing Jerry West and Wilt(replaced with good but not as good hawkins and another capable starter in elmore smith) is pretty decent. While, in 74 they barely missed 30 mpg West, games without 35 MPG West saw the Lakers go from a 7.5 MOV to a +3.5 MOV and a 62-win pace to a 44 win-pace. Considering the replacements, the minutes gap, their "production", and the Lakers holding up decently well without West in the playoffs, I see it as a pretty strong end-of-career signal for Wilt but I think the Lakers being stacked in 72 isn't an unfair appraisal.

The other variable to consider is srs tresholds. The ABA had suppressed SRS relative to the NBA in 72. From 71-74 none of the srs-leaders were at +8 and only 1 hit +7. Compare to the NBA for this time period where +8 was not enough to get you #1.

Not really trying to get too involved in what is being argued(Though I think the NBA>>the ABA at this point and Wilt is >> Zeemo), but figured someone may find some of this context note-worthy.

[70sFan]

I think it's kind of odd to think 35 year old, almost out of the league Wilt was the second best player in the league.

As mentioned before, is 1998 Jordan, 1969 Russell or 2020 LeBron also odd around the top of the league?

People are being swayed too much by a 69 win season, and not looking at the ensemble cast those Lakers had.

What exactly can you say about this cast? We all know you don't think highly of West, so tell us more about the rest.

The footage of 72 Wilt I've seen is alarmingly slow and lacking stamina

He did quite fine playing 48 mpg against 10 years younger Kareem in the WCF and visibly frustrating and outhustling him for someone who lacked stamina...

(watch how long it takes him to get back up the court after a defensive possession for eg).

So you are unaware that was stylistic choice by Sharman?

How are people putting him 2nd when they didn't have him nearly that high in many subsequent years? Looks like winning bias to me.

I think he's strong contender for 2nd spot next year. He had a down year in 1971 and he was hurt in 1970. It's not that complicated.

I doubt very much 35 yr old creaky Wilt was impacting games as much as young Gilmore.

We don't have any footage of rookie Gilmore ABA games outside of a few clips that you probably haven't seen, but we do have a few of his college games. NCAA Gilmore didn't even approach 1972 Wilt as a basketball player. It's a given that he improved and we also have more from his sophomore year when he looks better, but I still wouldn't call him clearly better than 1973 Wilt, a year older version.

We also have the majority of ABA vs NBA super game. I don't think it tells us much, but Wilt and Gilmore actually faced each other in that game and both did fairly well against the opponent.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - MVP. 1st Team All-NBA. One of the most dominant RS campaigns of all time if not the most dominant. The Bucks were also the #1 defense anchored by Kareem. He lapped the field after the RS and it would take something extraordinary happening for him not to get the top spot. Averaged 34.8/16.6/4.6 on 60.3 %TS (+9.9 rTS) in the RS then 28.1/18.2/5.1 on 46.2 %TS (-1.7 rTS) in the PS. At a first glance, the PS looks poor but that was the 1st round series against the Warriors which the team won easily so I won't hold it much against him unlike the following season. Against Wilt and the historic Lakers team, he had a very strong series as the injury-ravaged Bucks pushed the Lakers to the brink. Easy #1.

2. Wilt Chamberlain - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Anchored the historically great Lakers team on the defensive end. Wilt also had a very strong playoff run on the way to a championship. He averaged 14.8/19.2/4.0 on 61.0 %TS (+10.6 rTS) in the RS then 14.7/21.0/3.3 on 56.2 %TS (+7.6 rTS) in the PS. But it was on defense where Wilt shined holding all opposing bigs (particularly Kareem) well below their usual efficiency. The Lakers team defense was also spectacular in the PS with a -7.4 rDRtg and a lot of that was Wilt. He did his best Russell impression.

3. Walt Frazier - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Led the Knicks to the Finals without Willis Reed while putting up good numbers and excelling on defense. This season is probably peak Frazier. Averaged 23.2/6.7/5.8 on 57.6 %TS (+7.2 rTS) in the RS then 24.3/7.0/6.1 on 58.6 %TS (+8.2 rTS) in the PS.

4. John Havlicek - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Terrific all-around season and it's Havlicek's peak. Averaged 27.5/8.2/7.5 on 51.2 %TS (+0.8 rTS) in the RS then 27.4/8.4/6.4 on 54.0 %TS (+4.4 rTS). Led the Celtics to the ECF where they lost to the Knicks.

5. Jerry West - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. West had a terrific RS and actually finished a hair higher than Wilt in MVP voting with 2nd ahead of Wilt who was 3rd. However, his PS is marred by just horrific shooting in the last two rounds. West was amazing in a sweep against the Bulls then forgot how to shoot the rest of the way. And it could have cost the Lakers against the Bucks. Averaged 25.8/4.2/9.7 on 54.6 %TS (+4.2 rTS) in the RS then 22.9/4.9/8.9 on 44.5 %TS (-4.1 rTS) in the PS. With a decent shooting PS, he would be at least #3 but I can't overlook how bad his struggles were and the PS counts heavily at the end of the day.

OPOY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - No explanation needed.

2. Walt Frazier - Led the Knicks with efficient scoring and good playmaking.

3. Jerry West - Despite poor PS shooting, I think his offensive ceiling is much higher than anyone else.

DPOY

1. Wilt Chamberlain - Led the Lakers #2 defense in the RS (smidge behind Bucks at #1) and a great -7.4 rDRtg in the PS. Amazing defensive anchor.

2. Nate Thurmond - Great defensive anchor and really excelled man to man defending Kareem in the PS.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Anchored the #1 defense in the league in the RS and excelled in the PS as well.

[ardee]

Sorry for missing the last few.

PoY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: When I was younger and a major Wilt stan (still kind of am, just more objective), I used to try and argue for the Dipper in this year. Now, I admit there's just no way. To me it'd be like putting Russell over Wilt in '68. Just because the older guy won doesn't negate the entire body of work across the previous 90+ games.

2. Wilt Chamberlain: probably one of the strongest no. 2 years of all time. People above me have compared this year from him to '69 Russell, '98 Jordan or '20 LeBron, and I think it's quite fair. If Kareem wasn't in the league this season would be really considered quite iconic.

3. Jerry West: Going against the grain ranking him above Frazier here, but I think his regular season was spectacular enough that I can justify it despite his final two rounds being subpar. I mean, Kareem is unanimous no. 1 despite his own Playoff drop-off this year. That being said, on an emotional level it feels right: he spent his entire career carrying his team and just coming short, he deserved to be carried once.

4. Walt Frazier: West was better in the RS by a good bit imo but Walt did almost make up the deficit in the Playoffs. Also probably the best defensive guard the league had ever seen at that point in its history.

5. John Havlicek: Probably his peak year on a very good Celtics team. I would put him a level below the top 4 but very solid production. Don't think there's been quite another example of a young player from a prior dynasty taking the reins like this and reestablishing his team as a contender after everyone else has retired.

OPoY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Jerry West
3. Walt Frazier

DPoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Artis Gilmore

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Wilt is old and can't be 2nd is weird when someone as old got like 1st super recently.

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Julius Erving

Kareem goes #1 again and will stay there for many years to come.

Wilt finally unlocks his potential and leads the Lakers to a top defense and the result is one of the best title teams of all time by win percentage (fun fact: top 4 is just Jordan/Wilt teams). And while West was seen as the superior RS player at the time based on MVP votes, I would say Wilt was already the better player and the key behind the defensive turnaround.

A comparatively weak regular season teamwise for Frazier compared to other years but the Knicks dominate the East and had a close series with an all time team without Reed. Best scoring version from Frazier on top of the all round game.

Gilmore takes the ABA by storm but the Colonels fall in the first round despite being 8 SRS better than the previous year when they made the Finals. In particular, Barry was absent for G4 but Gilmore only put up 14/13 on 49% TS. Dr J levelled up over the course of his rookie season and by the playoffs, he was dominating everyone.

Special mention to Paul Silas who almost never gets talked about. Best player on a 5.6 SRS team that dropped to -1.0 SRS the following season after losing him and adding the ABA's top scorer. Meanwhile, the 1973 Celtics adding Silas were only 1 win away from the then record. 18/12/4 on +4.5% TS isn't spectacular box score but for a defense-first big, that's still a higher WS/48 than Havlicek for example.

[Djoker]

Wilt is old and can't be 2nd is weird when someone as old got like 1st super recently.

Indeed.

With that being said though, I can't really see how Wilt can make the OPOY ballot.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 15 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, falcolombardi, IlikeShaiGuys, 70s Fan, LA Bird, One_and_Done, Ardee, ShaqAttac, OhayoKD, Narigo, and trelos. Penbeast, LA Bird, Narigo, One_and_Done, OhayoKD, and ShaqAttac abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1971-72 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (2)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  7   0   2    37   0.822
2. Walt Frazier  2   4   2   24    0.533
3. Jerry West   0   3   3    12    0.267
4. Rick Barry   0   2   0    6    0.133
5. Julius Erving   0   0   1    1    0.022
5. Wilt Chamberlain   0   0   1    1    0.022

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Wilt Chamberlain (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Wilt Chamberlain  9   0   0   45   1.000
2. Nate Thurmond    0   7   2    23    0.511
3. Artis Gilmore    0   1   4    7    0.156
4a. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   0   3    3    0.067
4b. Dave DeBusschere  0   1   0    3    0.067

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (3) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15 0 0 0 0   150   1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain  0  13  1  0  0   96   0.640
3. Walt Frazier   0  1  11  2  1   69   0.460
4. Artis Gilmore  0  1  0  5  3   25   0.167
5. Nate Thurmond  0  0  1  4  3   20   0.133
6. Jerry West   0  0  1  2  2   13   0.087
7. Julius Erving  0  0  1  0  2   7    0.047
8. John Havlicek  0  0  0  1  3   6    0.040
9. Zelmo Beaty   0  0  0  1  0   3    0.020
10. Rick Barry  0  0  0  0  1   1    0.007

In the prior project, there were 16 votes, with Dr. Positivity overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 30 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 29 1 0 0 0   287   0.990
2. Wilt Chamberlain  1  26  2  0  0   202   0.673
3. Walt Frazier   0  2  20  5  3   132   0.440
4. Jerry West   0  0  4  3  8   37   0.123
4. John Havlicek  0  0  1  9  5   37    0.123
6. Artis Gilmore  0  1  0  6  4   29   0.097
7. Nate Thurmond  0  0  1  5  7   27   0.090
8. Julius Erving  0  0  1  1  2   10    0.033
9. Rick Barry  0  0  1  0  1   6    0.020
10. Zelmo Beaty   0  0  0  1  0   3    0.010

1973 thread will open shortly.