Jayson Tatum(1ST TM ALL-NBA) & Jaylen Brown(FINALS MVP)-23-24 Thread

[KingofTheClay]

Kobe made tough shots and can lead average teams to championships.

Well that's obviously not true.

Imagine Kobe on the 24 Celtics in lieu of Tatum. Probably the best team of all time.

Unlikely the case.

Pau Gasol and a bunch of bums.

Let’s be real.

Artest, Fisher, Bynum…….

Gimme a break.


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[tsherkin]

Kobe made tough shots and can lead average teams to championships.

Well that's obviously not true.

Imagine Kobe on the 24 Celtics in lieu of Tatum. Probably the best team of all time.

Unlikely the case.

Pau Gasol and a bunch of bums.

Let’s be real.

Artest, Fisher, Bynum…….

Gimme a break.


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Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about...

[KingofTheClay]

Well that's obviously not true.



Unlikely the case.

Pau Gasol and a bunch of bums.

Let’s be real.

Artest, Fisher, Bynum…….

Gimme a break.


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Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about...

All you’ve been doing is chirping bud.

Would have expected more from a moderator.


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[tsherkin]

All you’ve been doing is chirping bud.

At some point, you need to say something correct for the sake of quality discourse, though, and you've not yet done that.

You called the title Lakers under Kobe "average," but that's not the case. Pau was an 18/10/3.5 AS big man who played quality defense for them. Odom was a 6'10 ball handler with good passing ability and strong rebounding. Bynum was a 15/8 big who could protect the rim and hit his FTs, and was doing that in 30 mpg. That team killed it on the offensive glass, and in terms of 2FG% (where Kobe was not a monster). In 2010, they replaced Ariza (who had been red-hot from 3 in the playoffs) with Artest, who garned DPOY votes and gave them decent spacing from 3.

Nothing about that team was average. That's a horrifically bad descriptor of the team. The notion that Kobe makes "average" teams champions is ridiculous, which is what I was highlighting. It's a terrible, terrible description of a very talented team. Yes, Kobe led the way with volume scoring, and proved the point that he could lead a title team, but diminishing the rest of the team to prop Kobe up is a classic stan move, not quality description.

[KingofTheClay]

All you’ve been doing is chirping bud.

At some point, you need to say something correct for the sake of quality discourse, though, and you've not yet done that.

You called the title Lakers under Kobe "average," but that's not the case. Pau was an 18/10/3.5 AS big man who played quality defense for them. Odom was a 6'10 ball handler with good passing ability and strong rebounding. Bynum was a 15/8 big who could protect the rim and hit his FTs, and was doing that in 30 mpg. That team killed it on the offensive glass, and in terms of 2FG% (where Kobe was not a monster). In 2010, they replaced Ariza (who had been red-hot from 3 in the playoffs) with Artest, who garned DPOY votes and gave them decent spacing from 3.

Nothing about that team was average. That's a horrifically bad descriptor of the team. The notion that Kobe makes "average" teams champions is ridiculous, which is what I was highlighting. It's a terrible, terrible description of a very talented team. Yes, Kobe led the way with volume scoring, and proved the point that he could lead a title team, but diminishing the rest of the team to prop Kobe up is a classic stan move, not quality description.

Bynum did diddly squat from 08-10 in the finals. Averaged like 6 points.

Pau Gasol was a top 20 player. Lamar Odom was a great role player, a richer man’s Boris Diaw.

The rest was a bunch of bums. That wasn’t Pacers Ron Artest, that was a taller Dillon Brooks.


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[tsherkin]

Bynum did diddly squat from 08-10 in the finals. Averaged like 6 points.

Yes, but the Finals represent only a portion of the entire season. And the success of the team is based on more than just that. They had to get there in the first place, for example. He was more relevant in 2010 than 2009, but he represents depth, rebounding and rim protection, not scoring force.

Pau Gasol was a top 20 player. Lamar Odom was a great role player, a richer man’s Boris Diaw.

Yes, he was a starter (and later a 6th Man of the Year, actually) who wasn't an All-Star. Those are still important players. He also featured prominently in the triangle as a pressure release for Kobe, ball handler, ball reversal, etc.

The rest was a bunch of bums. That wasn’t Pacers Ron Artest, that was a taller Dillon Brooks.

I mean, he certainly wasn't All-Star Artest, I'll cede the point, but he was still a significant part of their team. You need to appreciate how someone who isn't a top-20 player in the league can impact the game. Or the value of the team as a whole matters. You called it an "average" team, but it really wasn't. It had competitive advantages in rim protection (and defense in general) and rebounding, things to which Kobe contributed much less than his teammates at that time.

[KingofTheClay]

Bynum did diddly squat from 08-10 in the finals. Averaged like 6 points.

Yes, but the Finals represent only a portion of the entire season. And the success of the team is based on more than just that. They had to get there in the first place, for example. He was more relevant in 2010 than 2009, but he represents depth, rebounding and rim protection, not scoring force.

Pau Gasol was a top 20 player. Lamar Odom was a great role player, a richer man’s Boris Diaw.

Yes, he was a starter (and later a 6th Man of the Year, actually) who wasn't an All-Star. Those are still important players. He also featured prominently in the triangle as a pressure release for Kobe, ball handler, ball reversal, etc.

The rest was a bunch of bums. That wasn’t Pacers Ron Artest, that was a taller Dillon Brooks.

I mean, he certainly wasn't All-Star Artest, I'll cede the point, but he was still a significant part of their team. You need to appreciate how someone who isn't a top-20 player in the league can impact the game. Or the value of the team as a whole matters. You called it an "average" team, but it really wasn't. It had competitive advantages in rim protection (and defense in general) and rebounding, things to which Kobe contributed much less than his teammates at that time.

Compared to a supporting cast like the 2024 Celtics, 2023 Nuggets, 2008 Celtics, 2012 Heat, 2014 Spurs, 2019 Raptors, 2017 Warriors, 2020 Lakers it was certainly average.

It was a team akin to the 2022 Warriors or the 2011 Mavs. At the top of that tier but not an elite supporting cast for a contender. One good second option and one very good role player (who was the 3rd best player)

Finals matters the most. And Kobe hard carried these guys for multiple series anyways. Kobe carried the Lakers against the nuggets in 09 the suns in 10, the lakers in the entirety of 2008.

Fisher and Artest both had one foot in the nursing home. Ariza? Ahahah, give me a break bud.


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[tsherkin]

Compared to a supporting cast like the 2024 Celtics, 2023 Nuggets, 2008 Celtics, 2012 Heat, 2014 Spurs, 2019 Raptors, 2017 Warriors, 2020 Lakers it was certainly average.

You're not paying any heed to depth relative to era, though, which is the key here. They were quite a good team for that particular time period. And yes, they were not first-tier among stacked title squads in league history, but they don't need to be in order to merely be "above average."

Finals matters the most. And Kobe hard carried these guys for multiple series anyways. Kobe carried the Lakers against the nuggets in 09 the suns in 10, the lakers in the entirety of 2008.

Kobe fronted the scoring volume, yes. There is, of course, more to the game than just scoring.

Ariza? Ahahah, give me a break bud.

It was relevant. He shot 47.6% on 3.7 3PA/g in that postseason, which was HUGE for the Lakers. In the Finals, he took 4.8 3PA/g and shot 41.7%. You may not LIKE the facts that surround those Lakers teams, but they are facts.

[KingofTheClay]

Compared to a supporting cast like the 2024 Celtics, 2023 Nuggets, 2008 Celtics, 2012 Heat, 2014 Spurs, 2019 Raptors, 2017 Warriors, 2020 Lakers it was certainly average.

You're not paying any heed to depth relative to era, though, which is the key here. They were quite a good team for that particular time period. And yes, they were not first-tier among stacked title squads in league history, but they don't need to be in order to merely be "above average."

Finals matters the most. And Kobe hard carried these guys for multiple series anyways. Kobe carried the Lakers against the nuggets in 09 the suns in 10, the lakers in the entirety of 2008.

Kobe fronted the scoring volume, yes. There is, of course, more to the game than just scoring.

Ariza? Ahahah, give me a break bud.

It was relevant. He shot 47.6% on 3.7 3PA/g in that postseason, which was HUGE for the Lakers. In the Finals, he took 4.8 3PA/g and shot 41.7%. You may not LIKE the facts that surround those Lakers teams, but they are facts.

Yeah sure significant for the team in a vacuum but not relative to other title winners. Spurs had 3 all stars, Heat had 3 top 20 players, Celtics had 3 all stars as contemporary rivals.

These Lakers supporting casts were in a similar tier to the Dallas 2011 supporting cast. Another fringe all-star and a couple good role players.

Almost every championship team AT THE MINUMUM has top 150 players like Ariza or freaking Fisher. Who gives a hoot when we’re talking about teams that have won titles. Kobe carried these guys for like 70% of the entire playoffs from 08-10.


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[KingofTheClay]

Bynum did diddly squat from 08-10 in the finals. Averaged like 6 points.

Yes, but the Finals represent only a portion of the entire season. And the success of the team is based on more than just that. They had to get there in the first place, for example. He was more relevant in 2010 than 2009, but he represents depth, rebounding and rim protection, not scoring force.

Pau Gasol was a top 20 player. Lamar Odom was a great role player, a richer man’s Boris Diaw.

Yes, he was a starter (and later a 6th Man of the Year, actually) who wasn't an All-Star. Those are still important players. He also featured prominently in the triangle as a pressure release for Kobe, ball handler, ball reversal, etc.

The rest was a bunch of bums. That wasn’t Pacers Ron Artest, that was a taller Dillon Brooks.

I mean, he certainly wasn't All-Star Artest, I'll cede the point, but he was still a significant part of their team. You need to appreciate how someone who isn't a top-20 player in the league can impact the game. Or the value of the team as a whole matters. You called it an "average" team, but it really wasn't. It had competitive advantages in rim protection (and defense in general) and rebounding, things to which Kobe contributed much less than his teammates at that time.

Yeah and the 2011 Mavs had freaking Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion.

Competitive advantages in rim protection, passing, and defensive versatility to the vast majority of teams.

Still viewed as one of the worst supporting casts to have won a title. And Lakers didn’t really have the same advantages in rim protection with Bynum being hobbled through most of the Lakers’ finals era.

What’s the point here?


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[TroubleS0me]

They gotta get better when talking to the media lol.

[KingofTheClay]

They gotta get better when talking to the media lol.

Tatum is already one of the most PR media trained cookie cutter players at giving interviews, probably couldn’t be any more boring.

Atleast Brown has some candid, earnest moments.


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[TroubleS0me]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[tsherkin]

Still viewed as one of the worst supporting casts to have won a title. And Lakers didn’t really have the same advantages in rim protection with Bynum being hobbled through most of the Lakers’ finals era.

Sad, though, because they had a WEALTH of defensive talent. Chandler won a DPOY and led the league in FG% literally the following season, you know? Dirk didn't have a ton of scoring support in the RS, which is mostly what people mean. He did not have an ATG-level supporting cast, that is true. But that was a high-quality team.

[TroubleS0me]

Tatum says he needs to work his shot mechanics but it seems like its just shot selection instead hmm
we will see how that goes..

[OhayoKD]

Bynum did diddly squat from 08-10 in the finals. Averaged like 6 points.

Yes, but the Finals represent only a portion of the entire season. And the success of the team is based on more than just that. They had to get there in the first place, for example. He was more relevant in 2010 than 2009, but he represents depth, rebounding and rim protection, not scoring force.

Pau Gasol was a top 20 player. Lamar Odom was a great role player, a richer man’s Boris Diaw.

Yes, he was a starter (and later a 6th Man of the Year, actually) who wasn't an All-Star. Those are still important players. He also featured prominently in the triangle as a pressure release for Kobe, ball handler, ball reversal, etc.

The rest was a bunch of bums. That wasn’t Pacers Ron Artest, that was a taller Dillon Brooks.

I mean, he certainly wasn't All-Star Artest, I'll cede the point, but he was still a significant part of their team. You need to appreciate how someone who isn't a top-20 player in the league can impact the game. Or the value of the team as a whole matters. You called it an "average" team, but it really wasn't. It had competitive advantages in rim protection (and defense in general) and rebounding, things to which Kobe contributed much less than his teammates at that time.

Yeah and the 2011 Mavs had freaking Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion.

Competitive advantages in rim protection, passing, and defensive versatility to the vast majority of teams.

Still viewed as one of the worst supporting casts to have won a title.

It doesn't really matter how they're viewed. They were not. Defense is a thing.

[tsherkin]

It doesn't really matter how they're viewed. They were not. Defense is a thing.

Yes, this.

[tsherkin]

Tatum says he needs to work his shot mechanics but it seems like its just shot selection instead hmm
we will see how that goes..

He needs to have something in his bag besides rim-or-three, that would be a good start. Hovering around/over 40% 3PAr is a problem, and it's name is "Wild Variance."