Retro Player of the Year 1974-75 UPDATE — Rick Barry

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Rick Barry - 1st Team All NBA. Finals MVP. Led the merely good Warriors team (+2.86 SRS) to a championship including the biggest Finals upset in history defeating the +6.53 SRS Bullets in a clean sweep, a series in which Barry was dominant. Barry was a good scorer producing high volume at solid efficiency, a terrific passer and a good defensive player. No particular reason not to give him the #1 spot given that he's in the running for best player in the world and lead his underdog team to a championship at the same time. Averaged 30.6/5.7/6.2 on 50.9 %TS (+0.7 rTS) in the RS then 28.2/5.5/6.1 on 50.7 %TS (+1.0 rTS) in the PS.

2. Bob McAdoo - MVP. 1st Team All-NBA. Historically underrated scorer at his absolute peak. Good rebounder as well and showed the ability to lead a team, taking the mediocre Buffalo Braves to a solid playoff showingtaking the Bullets to 7 games. Averaged 34.5/14.1/2.2 on 56.9 %TS (+6.7 rTS) in the RS then 37.4/13.4/1.4 on 52.8 %TS (+5.2 rTS) in the PS.

3. Elvin Hayes - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. The Big E anchored the best team in the NBA in the RS on both ends of the floor. In the mid to late 70's, Hayes was a reasonably efficient PS scorer, good rebounder and an elite defender. With Kareem having a down year, Hayes is probably the best two-way big man in the game this season. The only thing holding him back is the embarrassing loss in the Finals as a heavy favorite, a series in which he played quite poorly too. Averaged 23.0/12.2/2.5 on 49.6 %TS (-0.6 rTS) in the RS then 25.5/10.9/2.2 on 50.7 %TS (+1.0 rTS) in the PS. Before a subpar Finals, Hayes was a major force in the EC playoffs. The NBA being much stronger than the ABA gives Hayes the nod over the next guy although it's very close for me.

4. Artis Gilmore - 1st Team All-ABA. 1st Team All-Defense. Led his Kentucky Colonels to the ABA title behind a dominant PS performance. The A Train was a super efficient center and a dominant rebounder and defender. Probably the most imposing physical presence in pro basketball in the mid 70's as well. Averaged 23.6/16.2/2.5 on 61.5 %TS (+9.5 rTS) in the RS then 24.1/17.6/2.5 on 60.2 %TS (>+10 rTS) in the PS. I'm not sold on the ABA being a very good league and am ranking him as if he played in the NBA. It's doubtful the Colonels would still win a championship but Gilmore's play deserves recognition.

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Down season in which he missed 17 games (his team went 3-14). The Bucks missed the playoffs but Kareem wasn't so bad to miss out completely. The mediocrity of his team without him shouldn't weigh that heavily against him. He accomplished nothing of note but his ability still warrants a podium finish to me. I don't think Erving (who had a terrible PS) or Frazier have very convincing cases over Kareem as basketball players. He averaged 30.0/14.0/4.1 on 55.0 %TS (+4.8 rTS). Down season for him but that's still a terrific season for anyone else not to mention Kareem was still a great defender.

OPOY

1. RIck Barry - Best combo of scoring and playmaking.

2. Bob McAdoo - Insane scoring.

3. Tiny Archibald - Great combo of scoring and playmaking even if team not great.

DPOY

1. Artis Gilmore - Better paint protector due to his size and superior rebounder than Hayes.

2. Elvin Hayes - Fantastic defensive big man who kept carrying in the PS.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Still Kareem. Still big, can rebound and block shots as well as anyone.

[LA Bird]

.

Keeping this short to save time for the vote since I'm nearing the deadline already

1. I personally think Barry is getting #1 votes mostly because of the title. Considering the Finals was largely won on defense (-10.3) and not offense (+0.1), that gives Barry less of a boost compared to if he had shot crazy percentages and the Warriors won because of offense instead.
2. The series was 4 points away from being tied 2-2 instead of a 4-0 sweep. The Warriors might still have won the series anyway but the fact it was a sweep doesn't hold that much significance for me.
3. Agree to disagree on the importance of regular season for player evaluation
4. Barry's weak 70/71 WOWY is a part of why I am not that high on him even beyond the missed games. He had a perfect opportunity to dominate a weak league in its infancy (see Beaty) but failed to do so. Missed games matter to a certain extent but he could still have made top 5 for me with ~50 games if there was stronger impact.
5. Winning matters but luck not so much. The difference between Barry going 8-2 vs 4-6 in two finals series was literally five buckets. I am not going to completely change my opinion of him because he was/wasn't a winner based on a couple shots or defensive stops on the team level.
6. I would argue changes in project results over the years have usually more to do with the influx of new data rather than new voters (which makes a regular 3 year update excessive but that's another topic). Maybe I am wrong but I would guess Gilmore is ranking above Barry again in the next peaks project just like Ewing went back to beating Frazier/Reed in the example I gave.

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Artis Gilmore
2. Julius Erving
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Rick Barry
5. Bob McAdoo

Kareem takes a break in the middle of his 70s reign due to missed games but I don't think a 17 game absence is a death sentence either. We've had seasons like this before still make the top 5 (though obviously depends on level of competition). Kareem was still the best two way player and will be back on top for me again next season even with another missed playoffs. This puts Dr J in prime position to take the #1 spot after being second to only Kareem last and next year but he fumbled it in the playoffs. Teamwise, this is the biggest upset ever but individually, I don't think he played that bad outside of G2. Considering his usual track record in the playoffs both before and after, I am not going to drop Dr J a ton based on one outlier series. However, it was enough for him to lose the #1 spot to Gilmore.

After a down year in scoring, Gilmore bounced back with a massive increase in both volume (18.7 -> 23.6 ppg) and efficiency (+2.2 -> +9.5 rTS). He was the league leader in total rebounds and blocks, and led another dominant #1 defense (-6.4). The Colonels finished 3rd in SRS at less than 0.4 behind 1st and beat both teams ahead of them in regular season matchups (7-5, +2.3 MOV vs Nets and 4-3, +4.4 MOV vs Nuggets). With an equal RS record, Gilmore's Colonels and Erving's Nets faced off for a #1 seed tiebreaker where Gilmore single handedly outrebounded the entire Nets team 33-30 while adding 28 points on 67% TS and 5 assists. After that win, the Colonels went on to win the title with two gentleman sweeps and the only other loss being when they were up 2-0 without their 6th man. Some might say their playoffs opponents were weak and thus irrelevant but there is still some credit to dominating weaker teams and the Spirits and Pacers were probably a bit better than their RS records would suggest after upsetting +6.6 SRS, +3.9 SRS, +6.6 SRS teams right before facing the Colonels. The other counterargument is the ABA vs NBA disparity but 1975 is probably the strongest season in ABA history and Dr J had no issue beating every non-Kareem player in neighboring years.

Barry is 4th on my list. This is his peak season but I just don't see it as the epic team carry many do. The Warriors were tied for the #1 offense but at only +2.7, which is well short of the #1 defense at -6.4, and was also worse than their own rORtg from last year (+3.1). In the legendary finals, the Warriors' defense (-10.3) was much stronger than their offense (+0.1). In the crucial game 7 of the previous round, they won by only 4 points while holding the Bulls 13.4 pp100 below their regular season averages. George Johnson had 5 blocks and was credited by Bulls coach Dick Motta for changing the game inside with his play (per ElGee). Meanwhile, Barry had 22 points on 42.2% TS and 4 assists in the do-or-die game. A slighly less dominant team defense and Barry goes out in the Western Finals without all the narrative boost from winning a ring. But credit where credit is due, he was still by far the single most important player on the team and I am a fan of his playmaking especially in comparison to McAdoo.

The last spot is between McAdoo and Hayes for me. McGinnis was technically co-MVP in the ABA but it's meaningless because I think it's straight up stupid Gilmore got 0 votes as the #1 seed with the defense and numbers he had. In the past, I would have even put McAdoo over Barry based on scoring but I am valuing playmaking more in recent years and that's an issue in the playoffs for him. This postseason, McAdoo was at 24.8 TS attempts per assist. For reference Hayes was at 11.6 and he wasn't much of a passer already. McAdoo's scoring was unstoppable even against a historically strong defensive frontcourt but ultimately, I am not sure how much impact he is bringing elsewhere.

[OhayoKD]

6. I would argue changes in project results over the years have usually more to do with the influx of new data rather than new voters (which makes a regular 3 year update excessive but that's another topic). Maybe I am wrong but I would guess Gilmore is ranking above Barry again in the next peaks project just like Ewing went back to beating Frazier/Reed in the example I gave.

If there were really just 2 voters from this project on that thread, then this is just yap lol.

[Owly]

In the crucial game 7 of the previous round, they won by only 4 points while holding the Bulls 13.4 pp100 below their regular season averages. George Johnson had 5 blocks and was credited by Bulls coach Dick Motta for changing the game inside with his play (per ElGee). Meanwhile, Barry had 22 points on 42.2% TS and 4 assists in the do-or-die game.

So very much not my bag to focus in on one game, focus in on the final game of a series as more important, or to focus greatly on the playoffs. And the following is anecdotal so there's more caveats there. So not terribly important to me ... for whatever it's worth of that game Lazenby (The Finals, p174) talks about his cold start, his hot finish and in between

Finally, Attles pulled him. Barry sat on the bench praying for his teammates to bail him out, which they did down the stretch. The Golden State defense forced the Bulls into a cold streak with about seven minutes to go and the Warriors pulled even. Then Barry returned ...[and the hot finish]

...
"Bail him out" is a pretty loaded term. It's only one game (and one stretch of one game with the team apparently succeeding without him), so even if fully accurate it doesn't mean that much ... it might at least highlight the fragility of team playoff/title outcomes and narrative centric angles to the extent that they occur.

[penbeast0]

6. I would argue changes in project results over the years have usually more to do with the influx of new data rather than new voters (which makes a regular 3 year update excessive but that's another topic). Maybe I am wrong but I would guess Gilmore is ranking above Barry again in the next peaks project just like Ewing went back to beating Frazier/Reed in the example I gave.

If there were really just 2 voters from this project on that thread, then this is just yap lol.

Yeah, but Doc and I are influencers.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 12 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, LA Bird, One_and_Done, capfan33, ShaqAttac, OhayoKD, Narigo, and trelos. Penbeast, LA Bird, OhayoKD, One_and_Done, Narigo, and ShaqAttac abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1974-75 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Rick Barry

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Rick Barry  4   1   0    23   0.767
2. Bob McAdoo   0   3   2    11    0.367
3. Tiny Archibald   1   0   1   6    0.200
4a. George McGinnis  0   1   2    5    0.167
4b. Calvin Murphy   1   0   0    5    0.167
6. Julius Erving   0   0   1    1    0.033

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Artis Gilmore

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Artis Gilmore    3   3   0    24    0.800
2. Elvin Hayes    2   2   2    18    0.600
3. Bobby Jones    1   0   0    5    0.167
4. Nate Thurmond    0   1   0    3    0.100
5. Wes Unseld  0   0   2    2    0.067
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   0   1    1   0.033
6. Clifford Ray  0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Rick Barry

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Rick Barry  4  5  0  2  1   82   0.683
2. Artis Gilmore  4  0  3  3  1   65   0.542
3. Bob McAdoo  1  4  1  4  2   57   0.475
4. Julius Erving  2  2  1  0  1   40    0.333
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1 1 3 1 1   36   0.300
6. Elvin Hayes   0  0  3  1  2   20   0.167
7. George McGinnis  0  0  1  0  2   7   0.058
8. Bob Lanier   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.025
9. Walt Frazier   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.008
9. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.008

In the prior project, there were 20 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 30 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Rick Barry  17  9  0  3  1   243   0.810
2. Bob McAdoo  6  16  2  4  2   196   0.653
3. Artis Gilmore  4  1  9  7  7   120   0.400
4. Julius Erving  2  3  4  6  5   84    0.280
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1 1 10 2 5   78   0.260
6. Elvin Hayes   0  0  3  4  4   31   0.103
7. George McGinnis  0  0  2  2  4   20   0.067
8. Bob Lanier   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.010
8. Dave Cowens   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.010
10. Walt Frazier   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003
10. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003

1976 thread will open shortly.