Retro Player of the Year 1980-81 UPDATE — Larry Bird

[Djoker]

^Good post. I remember him fouling out of a few games but I didn't realize it was that bad.

Over 5 fouls per 36 is pretty bonkers!

[penbeast0]

Looked up Alton Lister's stats as he's the one I remember couldn't stop fouling people. 6 fouls/36 for whole career. Definitely limiting. Not in league yet but comes in taking the Harvey Catchings role as defensive specialist big in Milwaukee in a couple of years.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: I think he is still in his prime this year and the best player with a dominant scoring game, good D and more passing than Moses, I won't overreact to 3 G series loss where Magic's drop off was worse.

2. Larry Bird - Bird clearly outplayed Dr J in their ECF so I'll give him the edge, he is worse scorer but better passer and I'm not convinced the older Dr J is better on D.

3. Julius Erving - I prefer his skillset a bit to Moses overall due to passing more, the 76ers were clearly the 2nd best team so the finals run for the latter doesn't make a difference.

4. Moses Malone - He had a great run to the finals but benefitted from playoff format and top 2 records getting upset, I believe James Silas wasn't the same guy in the playoffs making the Spurs easier to beat than their 50 W record.

5. Marques Johnson - I considered Gervin for the team results still being good, but it looks like Marques stepped up in the playoffs fairly well.

Offensive player of the year

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Defensive player of the year

1. Dennis Johnson
2. Bobby Jones
3. Caldwell Jones

[70sFan]

^Good post. I remember him fouling out of a few games but I didn't realize it was that bad.

Over 5 fouls per 36 is pretty bonkers!

Playing impactful defense without fouling out is a very underrated ability. It is much easier to play aggressive defense for 5 minutes and picking up 3 fouls, it's another matter to impact the defense for 40 minutes without foul trouble.

It's one of the most underrated thing when you consider top defenders and that's another reason to put Russell at the GOAT position on that end.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 12 approved voters: Djoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, ILikeShaiGuys, ShaqAttac, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, OhayoKD, One_and_Done, 70sFan, trelos, and LA Bird. Penbeast, OhayoKD, One_and_Done, ShaqAttac, and LA Bird abstained from voting for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year, and ILikeShaiGuys abstained from voting for Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1980-81 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Larry Bird

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Larry Bird   4   0   2    22    0.629
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  2   2   1    17   0.486
3. Julius Erving  0   3   1    10    0.286
4. Moses Malone   1   1   1   9    0.257
5. George Gervin   0   1   1    4    0.114
6. Reggie Theus   0   0   1    1    0.029

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Robert Parish

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Robert Parish    2   2   0    16    0.422
2. Caldwell Jones    2   1   1    14   0.267
3. Bobby Jones   0   3   0    9    0.244
4. Dennis Johnson    1   0   3    8    0.200
5. Julius Erving    1   0   0    5    0.167
6. Elvin Hayes    0   0   1    1    0.033
6. Mychal Thompson    0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Larry Bird

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Larry Bird  6  1  2  1  1   81   0.736
2. Moses Malone  4  3  2  2  0   77    0.700
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1 5 4 2 0   71   0.645
4. Julius Erving  1  1  3  7  0   53   0.482
5. Marques Johnson  0  1  1  0  6   18   0.164
6. Robert Parish   0  1  0  0  0   7   0.064
7. George Gervin   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.018
7. Artis Gilmore  0  0  0  0  2   2   0.018
9. Dennis Johnson   0  0  0  0  0   1   0.009

In the prior project, there were 18 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 28 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Larry Bird  16  4  5  1  1   217   0.775
2. Moses Malone  5  10  7  5  0   170    0.607
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4 8 6 9 1   154   0.550
4. Julius Erving  3  4  8  13  0   137   0.489
5. Marques Johnson  0  1  2  0  15   32   0.114
6a. George Gervin   0  0  0  0  7   7   0.025
6b. Robert Parish   0  1  0  0  0   7   0.025
8. Artis Gilmore  0  0  0  0  2   2   0.007
9. Dennis Johnson   0  0  0  0  0   1   0.004
9. Cedric Maxwell   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.004

1982 thread will open shortly.

[kcktiny]

Playing impactful defense without fouling out is a very underrated ability. It is much easier to play aggressive defense for 5 minutes and picking up 3 fouls, it's another matter to impact the defense for 40 minutes without foul trouble. It's one of the most underrated thing when you consider top defenders and that's another reason to put Russell at the GOAT position on that end.

Well if you want to go that route - Chamberlain was another great defensive C that committed even fewer fouls. As a matter of fact Russell, compared to Chamberlain, committed almost 50% more fouls per minute than did Wilt.

But actually during the time Chamberlain and Russell played (1956-57 to 1972-73, during which time the average C committed 5.29 PF/48min) they had the two lowest foul rates among Cs - Wilt 2.08 PF/48min, Bill 3.05 PF/48min, Nate Thurmond 3.20 PF/48min. On the other extreme during that time Ray Felix was at 8.67 PF/48min, Mel Counts 7.96 PF/48min, and Walt Dukes 7.35 PF/48min.

[One_and_Done]

Putting Parish 3rd and not listing Bird is like attributing the Suns success to Marion instead of Nash. Parish was a nice player, but that is way too high for him.

[Djoker]

Playing impactful defense without fouling out is a very underrated ability. It is much easier to play aggressive defense for 5 minutes and picking up 3 fouls, it's another matter to impact the defense for 40 minutes without foul trouble. It's one of the most underrated thing when you consider top defenders and that's another reason to put Russell at the GOAT position on that end.

Well if you want to go that route - Chamberlain was another great defensive C that committed even fewer fouls. As a matter of fact Russell, compared to Chamberlain, committed almost 50% more fouls per minute than did Wilt.

But actually during the time Chamberlain and Russell played (1956-57 to 1972-73, during which time the average C committed 5.29 PF/48min) they had the two lowest foul rates among Cs - Wilt 2.08 PF/48min, Bill 3.05 PF/48min, Nate Thurmond 3.20 PF/48min. On the other extreme during that time Ray Felix was at 8.67 PF/48min, Mel Counts 7.96 PF/48min, and Walt Dukes 7.35 PF/48min.

Fouling rates that are too low can be a result of low aggression and not disciplined defense though. Wilt has been accused of being obsessed with never fouling out that he completely stopped playing defense when he was in foul trouble.

[kcktiny]

Fouling rates that are too low can be a result of low aggression and not disciplined defense though. Wilt has been accused of being obsessed with never fouling out that he completely stopped playing defense when he was in foul trouble.

Is that a fact.

Since the league first tracked minutes played in 1951-52, there have been 615 Cs that have played 1000+ career minutes in the NBA. Of those 615 Cs, Wilt has the best/lowest rate of fouls committed at just that aforementioned 2.08 PF/48min.

He played in 1045 regular season games and 46 min/g, so over his entire career he averaged - what - just 2 fouls per game?

So just when exactly was he in foul trouble? Like maybe the occasional holiday?

[tsherkin]

Fouling rates that are too low can be a result of low aggression and not disciplined defense though. Wilt has been accused of being obsessed with never fouling out that he completely stopped playing defense when he was in foul trouble.

Is that a fact.

Since the league first tracked minutes played in 1951-52, there have been 615 Cs that have played 1000+ career minutes in the NBA. Of those 615 Cs, Wilt has the best/lowest rate of fouls committed at just that aforementioned 2.08 PF/48min.

He played in 1045 regular season games and 46 min/g, so over his entire career he averaged - what - just 2 fouls per game?

So just when exactly was he in foul trouble? Like maybe the occasional holiday?

You understand that 2 quick fouls is foul trouble, right? He doesn't need 4+ fouls to be "in foul trouble."

[kcktiny]

You understand that 2 quick fouls is foul trouble, right? He doesn't need 4+ fouls to be "in foul trouble."

You clearly don't understand that if there was ever a C in NBA history that rarely picked up 2 quick fouls it was Chamberlain.

This guy averaged just 2 fouls per game in over 1000 games playing 46 min/g. What are you missing?

[ShaqAttac]

Marques impact looks bad.

Explain?

they won all the games he didnt play and won a bunch after

if a team gonna get dubs in all the games u don't play and you never even get close to a chip how good are you?