Retro Player of the Year 1990-91 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1990-91.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 20:30PM EST on Sunday, November 24th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.

Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

[One_and_Done]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. D.Rob
4. Barkley
5. K.Malone

Another relatively easy vote. Jordan was still the best player in the league, with Magic in 2nd place. Similarly, D.Rob was an easy 3rd place. I actually considered D.Rob above Magic, but on balance his playoff success tends to show less impact than the RS. Things might be very different in today's league for Magic and D.Rob, but that's more a top 100 ranking issue. I don't think D.Rob had that much around him, and what he did have wasn't exactly defensive talent (other than Strickland). Yet the Spurs had the best defensive rating in the league. If the other players like older Terry Cummings were so impactful it should have shown up on offense more for one thing. It was the same the previous year; the Spurs were a team who mostly won with their D.

Barkley was not quite as much of a wrecking ball this year, but he was still incredible, enough to edge ahead of the Mailman. Hakeem missed enough games that I don't need to consider him.

HM: K.Johnson

[Lebronnygoat]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.
Playoffs
I believe Magic had the better first two rounds of the playoffs, as he rises vs a 52 win team and the 2nd best defense in the league, and Jordan translates vs a 39 win team and the 12th best defense in the league. 2nd round, Magic rises vs a 44 win team and 23rd ranked defense in the league, and Jordan drops vs a 52 win team and 16th best defense in the league. The level of offensive output these two displayed vs their respective 2nd round opponents shouldn’t really take into consideration the level of defense they played considering both were below league average. 3rd round, Magic translates vs a 63 win team and 3rd best defense in the league, and Jordan rises vs a 50 win team and 4th best defense in the league. Bare in mind, the DPOY of this team only played 18MPG in the final two games of this 4 game series vs 34MPG in the regular season, and their two best big men defenders (James Edwards and Laimbeer) only played ~20MPG in the final two games of this series. While, Laimbeer averages 33MPG in the regular season. Not to mention, Zeke was heavily restricted this series in terms of what he can do, dealing with a sprained ankle from last round and a fractured wrist he’s wearing a cast for. Why are the last two games important, you might ask? Well, because in game 1, that was their best defenders playing their average course of minutes, and Jordan had his worst game of the series or maybe playoff run. 23 points, 53% true shooting. Game 2, however, his play must be acknowledged, dropping 35 on 67% true shooting. Though, what we’re really left here with is very black and white in terms of, how good is Jordan against a true Pistons team. But altogether, this should still be considered a rise. Magic had to face a tougher challenge, going up against a clearly better defense and still being able to create at ATG levels, and be a goat level playmaker when you add in his passing and fast break. Scoring translated. For the 3rd round, Jordan probably will take this. Though, it is more impressive for Magic to get past that 63 win Portland team vs Jordan sweeping that 50 win, deteriorating Detroit team. It’s close, you can’t deny that.
In the Finals, both were at the same efficiency. Jordan indeed did rise, and Magic arguably did, but probably did not. Given that Magic was better in the regular season, it still doesn’t inherently mean Jordan was better. Jordan was able to combine ATG scoring and great playmaking (I tracked 11 creations for teammates per game). Magic was able go combine elite scoring, and goat level playmaking (I tracked 17 creations for teammates per game), but Magic is a special case, where the volume of creations don’t need to be in the 20’s, because his other plethora of tools (see spoiler) as a playmaker contributes to a team’s offense. As for defense, Jordan was giving up open shots or fouling too much on Magic, so defense in terms of impact probably shouldn’t be propped up here as a big needle mover in the finals. But for the conference finals, that can be used as a fair point, hence why I’d give Jordan that round.

Spoiler:

You can quite literally watch Magic creating several more open shots than Jordan on average. You can also watch Magic having far better interior reads, far better perimeter reads, far better outlet passing, far better passing ie passing angles, velocity, versatility of passes (lay downs, pocket passing, wrap around passing, kick out passing, ect.). He’s also far better with capitalizing off preset advantages, better passing turnover economy and better quality of creations. He’s also pushing the break at insane levels no one has in the history of basketball, which is why the Pacers were so historically good last year at offense before Halliburton started to plummet as a player and get injured (it’s because he loved getting out into transition). So while he is having the benefit of 3 on 2 situations, he’s sort of the catalyst as to why they’re in these situations that almost automatically lead to buckets. He’s the better on court coach offensively too, I mean, a cool tidbit I’ve seen from Magic was his ability to create illegal defensive calls, though it probably didn’t happen every game. It’s just to show his mind over the game might be bar none.

Overall
I think Magic and Jordan have interesting arguments, but as a better player and season, give me the Magic Man…

[OhayoKD]

Think we should start compiling the game-to-game/series-series stuff as well.

1991 Finals, Lebronnygoat creation-tracking

Jordan was able to combine ATG scoring and great playmaking (I tracked 11 creations for teammates per game).

Magic was able to combine elite scoring, and goat level playmaking (I tracked 17 creations for teammates per game)

Was leaning Jordan here, but probably should give more thought on the matter.

[OhayoKD]

For the 3rd round, Jordan probably will take this. Though, it is more impressive for Magic to get past that 63 win Portland team vs Jordan sweeping that 50 win, deteriorating Detroit team. It’s close, you can’t deny that.

Honestly, with the context of injury reducing Worthy to basically a non-factor in games 5 and 6 (Lakers still won both), the Pistons playing negative defense in the first two rounds of the playoffs, and Jordan being contained rather well for 7 of the first 8 quarters(the context around the 8th has been discussed ad-nasueum) facing the Pistons with everyone, I'm hard pressed to see Jordan's performance as more impressive.

[Lebronnygoat]

For example, this is what I’d consider creation when reviewing these players
9:20
10:50
1:31:40
1:32:10
1:32:50
1:33:10

https://youtu.be/9uOwkqw3H34?si=gOq0MkbMZ6WO7szv

[OhayoKD]

For example, this is what I’d consider creation when reviewing these players
9:20
10:50
1:31:40
1:32:10
1:32:50
1:33:10

https://youtu.be/9uOwkqw3H34?si=gOq0MkbMZ6WO7szv

This is going to be quick and dirty since I have work stuff but couldn't pass-up a chance to try my quality tracking approach on a full game's worth of creations. Going to just put the tallies so this is quick. Peer-review is appreciated as always. A caveat though:

Lebronnygoat is counting creations, I've been tracking assists

This implies lebronnygoat is using a different qualitative standard for what he's counting than what I'm counting and comparing quality-creation rates which include all the assists of a game to all the creations of a game is a bit like comparing oranges to clementines. Lebronbygoat is likely filtering out plays I am including on the basis of it failing his bar for "creation" (seems to demand significant movement from extra defenders), while filtering in plays that my approach simply didn't allow me to count.

"weak" creations for example probably aren't here at all. Proper comparison would probably demand doing this with creation-tracking(with a similar standard applied for both players in question)

With that out of the way...

9:20 - 2 dtos, 1 ada(assistance comes from screen), 1 edto, Great
10:50, 1 dto, 2 adas(assistance comes from screen, other guy recovers back), Decent
1:31:40, 2 dtos, 1 ada, 1 edto, Good
1:32:10, 2 dtos, Good
1:32:50, 1 dto, 4 adas (trickest possession to count by far, three different instances of screen-assistance), Great
1:33:10, 2 dtos, 1 edto Decent

Going to hold off any analysis until after I've done this with similar tracking, but for later use...

Tally
Over 6 tracked creations, I gave Jordan 10 DTOs, 8 ADAs, and 4 EDTOs, with 18 defenders affected in total

That makes for 1.5 DTO, 3 total defenders affected, and 0.8 edtos on a per-creation average.
Do with that as you will. (fwiw, I considered giving Jordan 2 dtos in the second to last one which would get his total to 11 as I hadn' thought about what to do when screen-assistance comes from the pass recepient before)

Next step is to establish a clear and consistent baseline for what qualifies as a "creation" I think

[Djoker]

Alright... so we've got quite a bit of ON-OFF for this season!

Michael Jordan

Regular Season - 57 games (partial)

ON: +9.8
OFF: -6.3
ON-OFF: +16.1

Playoffs - 17 games

ON: +15.0
OFF: +3.8
ON-OFF: +11.2

Finals - 5 games

ON: +13.0
OFF: -7.6
ON-OFF: +20.6

Magic Johnson

Regular Season - 51 games (partial)

ON: +6.8
OFF: -8.9
ON-OFF: +15.7

Finals - 5 games

ON: -8.3
OFF: -49.4
ON-OFF: +41.0

Scottie Pippen

Regular Season - 57 games (partial)

ON: +8.5
OFF: -0.3
ON-OFF: +8.8

Finals - 5 games

ON: +10.3
OFF: +18.6
ON-OFF: -8.3

Charles Barkley

Regular Season - 82 games

ON: +3.1
OFF: -5.7
ON-OFF: +8.8

Playoffs - 8 games

ON: -1.5
OFF: -0.8
ON-OFF: -0.6

David Robinson

Regular Season - 54 games (partial)

ON: +5.2
OFF: -7.4
ON-OFF: +12.6

Larry Bird

Regular Season - 40 games (partial)

ON: +8.3
OFF: -1.1
ON-OFF: +9.4

[jjgp111292]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.

?

1990: 32/6.6/6.1 per75, +6.8 rTS%
1991: 32/6.1/5.6 per75, +7.1 rTS%

The main difference is he played less minutes and Scottie took over more of the playmaking duties. It was even a common complaint among Bulls players that MJ was playing exactly the same as the year before even though Phil had fully implemented the triangle. In fact, Phil's tendency to yank him when he was getting hot actually increased his aggression, particularly early in games.

The coasting argument is more apt for the next season, where had a few stretches of subpar (for his standard) play and the supporting cast were pretty much all having career years

[Lebronnygoat]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.

?

1990: 32/6.6/6.1 per75, +6.8 rTS%
1991: 32/6.1/5.6 per75, +7.1 rTS%

The main difference is he played less minutes and Scottie took over more of the playmaking duties. It was even a common complaint among Bulls players that MJ was playing exactly the same as the year before even though Phil had fully implemented the triangle. In fact, Phil's tendency to yank him when he was getting hot actually increased his aggression, particularly early in games.

The coasting argument is more apt for the next season, where had a few stretches of subpar (for his standard) play and the supporting cast were pretty much all having career years

Interesting how you use decimals to fit your little agenda and when not to. 1991 was 31.5/6.0/5.5 and 1990 was 33.6/6.9/6.3. So you got the stats off, + I was talking about 1989… he was more efficient, scored a point more and playmaked more, which was the real thing that wasn’t coast like. He went coast-like until playoffs hit in 1991 in comparison to his other years like 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987.

[Lebronnygoat]

Alright... so we've got quite a bit of ON-OFF for this season!

Michael Jordan

Regular Season - 57 games (partial)

ON: +9.8
OFF: -6.3
ON-OFF: +16.1

Playoffs - 17 games

ON: +15.0
OFF: +3.8
ON-OFF: +11.2

Finals - 5 games

ON: +13.0
OFF: -7.6
ON-OFF: +20.6

Magic Johnson

Regular Season - 51 games (partial)

ON: +6.8
OFF: -8.9
ON-OFF: +15.7

Finals - 5 games

ON: -8.3
OFF: -49.4
ON-OFF: +41.0

Scottie Pippen

Regular Season - 57 games (partial)

ON: +8.5
OFF: -0.3
ON-OFF: +8.8

Finals - 5 games

ON: +10.3
OFF: +18.6
ON-OFF: -8.3

Charles Barkley

Regular Season - 82 games

ON: +3.1
OFF: -5.7
ON-OFF: +8.8

Playoffs - 8 games

ON: -1.5
OFF: -0.8
ON-OFF: -0.6

David Robinson

Regular Season - 54 games (partial)

ON: +5.2
OFF: -7.4
ON-OFF: +12.6

Larry Bird

Regular Season - 40 games (partial)

ON: +8.3
OFF: -1.1
ON-OFF: +9.4

Interesting, this is RAPM or just on off? Magic +40 is insane. Not too fond of on offs but I do know many people here are… and, it looks like they should be giving Magic a good thought with these numbers.

[trelos6]

OPOY

1.Magic Johnson. STILL the best passer and playmaker in the NBA. Drives a top 5 offense, in both playoffs and rs. 20 pp75 on +8.9 rTS%. Team rOrtg +4.2.

2.Michael Jordan. 32 pp75, +7.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg +6.7. Elite scoring, great efficiency. Elite team offense in both regular season and playoffs.

3.Charles Barkley. 27.8 pp75 on +10.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg was 0. Briefly considered Ricky Pierce, Karl Malone, David Robinson, and Michael Adams. Strongly considered Reggie Miller.


DPOY

1.Hakeem Olajuwon. Great defensive season. Anchored the #2 defense in the regular seaosn.

2.David Robinson. Anchored the #1 defense in the regular season.

3.Dennis Rodman. A few good options for #3. Vlade, Ewing, Pippen. But I’ll give it to Rodman.


POY

1.Michael Jordan. Final year of his 3 year stretch, which might just be the best 3 year stretch in NBA history. His 3 yr PS run included 34.1 pp75 on +7.3 rTS%. +6.52 OPIPM, +1.68 DPIPM. +8.21 PIPM. 24.12 Wins Added.

2.David Robinson. Came down to Magic vs D Rob, and I’m going D Rob. Was pretty good in the playoffs, and scored 24.8 pp75 on +8.1 rTS% in the regular season. +3.33 OPIPM, +4.05 DPIPM, +7.38 PIPM. 20.33 Wins Added.

3.Magic Johnson. Best offensive player in the league. +5.16 OPIPM, +0.4 DPIPM, +5.56 PIPM. 19.04 Wins Added.

4.Hakeem Olajuwon. +0.5 OPIPM, +5 DPIPM, +5.5 PIPM. 11.4 Wins Added. 21.1 pp75 on +1.5 rTS%.

5. Charles Barkley. Between Charles and Karl Malone, I think Charles was better on offense, but Karl the better defensive player. But I give Charles the edge in 90-91. +4.84 OPIPM, -0.21 DPIPM, +4.63 PIPM, 12.8 Wins Added.

[OhayoKD]

Kola's Ballot:

Spoiler:

1991

Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
+ Los Angeles School make Conference Cross-Over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Houston School - Bucket Getter - Grade 2
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs San-Francisco School - Bucket Getter - Grade 1
+ Hoop Flash vs Portland School, Battles 5 and 6 - Bucket Getter - Grade 1
+ Hooper Burnout vs Los Angeles School - In Pippen’s Pocket


Michael Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 2 4

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
+ Chicago School wins Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs New York School
- Hooper Burnout vs Philadelphia School - Bucket Getter - Grade 1
- Hooper Burnout vs Detroit School - Bucket-Getter


Scottie Pippen - (Grain Version) Mai
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Perimeter Purgatory

Ball Techniques:
+ Biggy Wingy
+ Powah Passer
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 2
+ Stoppah - Special Grade
+ Floor-General - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for playing with MJ, everyone will remember Pippen played with MJ

Key Chapters:
+ Chicago wins Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Philadelphia School - Bucket Getter - Grade 4
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Detroit School - Bucket Getter - Grade 4
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Los Angeles School - Rim-Protection - Grade 1; Where’s the Magic gone?


Charles Barkley - (Grain Version) Panda
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ The Brave Little Boarder
+ Needle in the Haystack
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 1
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 2; Reverse Technique - Untimely Doubles

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for being the funniest sorcerer, Barkley must attempt and miss 1500 long-range attacks or swear off McNuggets

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Bucks - Bucket-Getter - Grade 2
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Chicago School - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade

Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use Grade 1
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Los Angeles School - Rim-Protection - Grade 2; Stoppah - Grade 2

[One_and_Done]

I'd query Hakeem voters on how they feel he added more value than say Malone or D Rob or Barkley, given he played only 56 games and was only healthy enough to start in 50 of them. That's a huge chunk of the season.

[jjgp111292]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.

?

1990: 32/6.6/6.1 per75, +6.8 rTS%
1991: 32/6.1/5.6 per75, +7.1 rTS%

The main difference is he played less minutes and Scottie took over more of the playmaking duties. It was even a common complaint among Bulls players that MJ was playing exactly the same as the year before even though Phil had fully implemented the triangle. In fact, Phil's tendency to yank him when he was getting hot actually increased his aggression, particularly early in games.

The coasting argument is more apt for the next season, where had a few stretches of subpar (for his standard) play and the supporting cast were pretty much all having career years

Interesting how you use decimals to fit your little agenda and when not to. 1991 was 31.5/6.0/5.5 and 1990 was 33.6/6.9/6.3. So you got the stats off, + I was talking about 1989… he was more efficient, scored a point more and playmaked more, which was the real thing that wasn’t coast like. He went coast-like until playoffs hit in 1991 in comparison to his other years like 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987.

...I didn't use decimals on the PPG because I wanted to save myself 1 second of effort by typing "32" instead of "32.0." I wasn't rounding any numbers up or down, his PPG per 75 both years is literally 32.0 even. You either misunderstood that, or completely missed the per 75 part given you think I got all of his counting stats wrong. Either way, you brought a bunch of hostility for no reason when it was actually a you problem

But perhaps it was my mistake for even bother to engage with a guy named "lebronmygoat" whose post history almost entirely revolves around LeBron vs. MJ debates and coincidentally didn't start voting in this project until Michael Jordan became an eligible player (this is the part where you say 'Well where have YOU been?' but I'm obviously not a participant in the voting and was merely pointing out something I found strange the one time I'm reading this thread before voting is resolved).

Moreover, I'm not sure how less playmaking is indicative of coasting and not simply a change in roles/system.

[Djoker]

It's not often you see a playoff team as dominant as the 1991 Bulls who are probably a top 5 PS team of all time. Sure some of it was softer competition but they just pulverized opponents. Overall net ratings of +13.2 in the PS and then a crazy +11.2 in the Finals. With Jordan ON, those ratings are +15.0 and +13.0 respectively. Going into the Finals, the Bulls were just -200 favorites which means bookies thought the Lakers had a good chance coming into the series. The 1991 Bulls were an absurdly dominant team in the RS too. 8.57 SRS works out to 63 Pythagorean Wins. For comparison purposes, the Showtime Lakers' absolute best year in 1987 was 8.32 SRS which is 62 PW.

I also tracked MJ's defense in the 1991 Finals when I did the plus-minus tracking.

I decided to watch the 1991 Finals and track Jordan's plus-minus as well as his defense on Magic and in general. I graded his defense using letter grades as follows:

A - great
B - good
C - average
D - subpar
F - terrible

There were a few instances when time on the clock wasn't shown so I couldn't see exactly when MJ was substituted in or out but the error shouldn't be more than 5 seconds. It's also notable that minutes in a few games don't match the minutes on BRef although the series average is accurate at ~44 mpg.

Game 1

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 41:20: -3
Jordan OFF 6:40: +1

Defensive Grade: F (terrible)

MJ got absolutely cooked by Magic here having spent almost the whole game on him. He committed a woeful 5 shooting fouls on Magic. Just gambled for steals way too much and kept reaching for the ball. He also didn't do well on a few possessions when switched onto Worthy and Divac.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 12 points (1/2, 9/10)
Worthy 4 points (2/3, 0/0)
Divac 2 points (1/1, 0/0)

Game 2

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 37:05 : +28
Jordan OFF 10:55: -7

Defensive Grade: B (good)

Jordan spent half of the first quarter on Magic. He committed one non-shooting foul and drew one charge on the Magic man. Then Pippen spent much of the rest of the game on Magic. Jordan spent a few minutes on Magic in the 3rd quarter and committed a shooting foul leading to two free throws. MJ registered a nice block on Worthy, a steal on Teagle and drew a charge on Divac. All in all he was very active as a help defender compared to Game 1 even though he spent most of this game off of Magic.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 2 points (0/0, 2/2)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 12 points (4/13, 4/4)

Magic had a far worse game here not just because Pippen was on him. Magic actually shook Pippen quite a few times but Pip didn't foul and the Bulls rotated better at the rim.

Game 3

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 50:52 : +7
Jordan OFF 2:08: +1

Defensive Grade: B (good)

Jordan and Pippen pretty much split their time on Magic. Jordan did a good job contesting Magic and was patient for the most part. He committed one shooting foul on Magic and another on Teagle. MJ forced Divac into a backcourt violated by pressing him and contested two more of his shots at the rim. He also registered a nice block on Teagle.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 6 points (2/5, 2/2)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 16 points (5/10, 6/7)

Pippen just kept getting beat off the bounce by Magic and didn't do well here. MJ also gambled on Magic once but a good rotation at the rim prevented a collapse.

Game 4

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 45:36 : +13
Jordan OFF 2:24: +2

Defensive Grade: D (subpar)

The bad tendencies from Game 1 reared their ugly head again. MJ spent about half of the game on Magic and committed two shooting fouls and allowed a few blow-bys by gambling. He also had one nice block on Teagle but wasn't too active on defense in this one.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 9 points (3/3, 3/3)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 13 points (3/10, 7/7)

Pippen also kept getting killed by Magic but Magic missed a few easy attempts at the rim and/or got bothered by Grant.

Game 5

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 48:00 : +7
Jordan OFF 0:00: 0

Defensive Grade: A (great)

MJ played the full 48 minutes here and was fantastic on D. Spent a big part of the game on Magic and just gave him a super hard time. Magic scored 5 points on 2 shots including a tough contested shot and a 3-pointer but MJ forced him into several turnovers. And he played smart without fouling and made it tough for Magic to receive the ball or get into his offense. MJ also got 5 steals, two on Magic and one each on Divac, AC Green and Teagle and got 2 blocks including one from behind on Green.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 5 points (2/2, 0/0)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 11 points (2/10, 6/6)

The Bulls' team defense did a good job limiting Magic as in Game 4. Pippen was just solid but not spectacular.

[Lebronnygoat]

?

1990: 32/6.6/6.1 per75, +6.8 rTS%
1991: 32/6.1/5.6 per75, +7.1 rTS%

The main difference is he played less minutes and Scottie took over more of the playmaking duties. It was even a common complaint among Bulls players that MJ was playing exactly the same as the year before even though Phil had fully implemented the triangle. In fact, Phil's tendency to yank him when he was getting hot actually increased his aggression, particularly early in games.

The coasting argument is more apt for the next season, where had a few stretches of subpar (for his standard) play and the supporting cast were pretty much all having career years

Interesting how you use decimals to fit your little agenda and when not to. 1991 was 31.5/6.0/5.5 and 1990 was 33.6/6.9/6.3. So you got the stats off, + I was talking about 1989… he was more efficient, scored a point more and playmaked more, which was the real thing that wasn’t coast like. He went coast-like until playoffs hit in 1991 in comparison to his other years like 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987.

...I didn't use decimals on the PPG because I wanted to save myself 1 second of effort by typing "32" instead of "32.0." I wasn't rounding any numbers up or down, his PPG per 75 both years is literally 32.0 even. You either misunderstood that, or completely missed the per 75 part given you think I got all of his counting stats wrong. Either way, you brought a bunch of hostility for no reason when it was actually a you problem

But perhaps it was my mistake for even bother to engage with a guy named "lebronmygoat" whose post history almost entirely revolves around LeBron vs. MJ debates and coincidentally didn't start voting in this project until Michael Jordan became an eligible player (this is the part where you say 'Well where have YOU been?' but I'm obviously not a participant in the voting and was merely pointing out something I found strange the one time I'm reading this thread before voting is resolved).

Moreover, I'm not sure how less playmaking is indicative of coasting and not simply a change in roles/system.

That's the point, I can use per75 to say Curry this year isn't somehow coasting with his team being way better in comparison to 2023 as per75 IA implies 2025 Curry is only 1.7pts behind himself from 2023 but is also more effiecient (+7.5% in 2023 vs +9.1% in 2025). Hence why I used actual PPG in my former post. Coasting in the regular season doesn't mean you're a worse player (how good are you given any possession), just means his impact left out on the court each game isn't as big as it was (like how I said) in comparison to 1989, and even 1990. Same thing with Curry and Jordan, both teams improved and so they play less and still win, but are nearly the exact same players, though their impact has shrunk in the regular season. If a system is put into place for you to play less, handle the ball less, create for others less, and score less, that means your impact has been shrunk. It's probably to savour Jordan and let him go bonkers come playoff time.

[Special_Puppy]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.
Playoffs
I believe Magic had the better first two rounds of the playoffs, as he rises vs a 52 win team and the 2nd best defense in the league, and Jordan translates vs a 39 win team and the 12th best defense in the league. 2nd round, Magic rises vs a 44 win team and 23rd ranked defense in the league, and Jordan drops vs a 52 win team and 16th best defense in the league. The level of offensive output these two displayed vs their respective 2nd round opponents shouldn’t really take into consideration the level of defense they played considering both were below league average. 3rd round, Magic translates vs a 63 win team and 3rd best defense in the league, and Jordan rises vs a 50 win team and 4th best defense in the league. Bare in mind, the DPOY of this team only played 18MPG in the final two games of this 4 game series vs 34MPG in the regular season, and their two best big men defenders (James Edwards and Laimbeer) only played ~20MPG in the final two games of this series. While, Laimbeer averages 33MPG in the regular season. Not to mention, Zeke was heavily restricted this series in terms of what he can do, dealing with a sprained ankle from last round and a fractured wrist he’s wearing a cast for. Why are the last two games important, you might ask? Well, because in game 1, that was their best defenders playing their average course of minutes, and Jordan had his worst game of the series or maybe playoff run. 23 points, 53% true shooting. Game 2, however, his play must be acknowledged, dropping 35 on 67% true shooting. Though, what we’re really left here with is very black and white in terms of, how good is Jordan against a true Pistons team. But altogether, this should still be considered a rise. Magic had to face a tougher challenge, going up against a clearly better defense and still being able to create at ATG levels, and be a goat level playmaker when you add in his passing and fast break. Scoring translated. For the 3rd round, Jordan probably will take this. Though, it is more impressive for Magic to get past that 63 win Portland team vs Jordan sweeping that 50 win, deteriorating Detroit team. It’s close, you can’t deny that.
In the Finals, both were at the same efficiency. Jordan indeed did rise, and Magic arguably did, but probably did not. Given that Magic was better in the regular season, it still doesn’t inherently mean Jordan was better. Jordan was able to combine ATG scoring and great playmaking (I tracked 11 creations for teammates per game). Magic was able go combine elite scoring, and goat level playmaking (I tracked 17 creations for teammates per game), but Magic is a special case, where the volume of creations don’t need to be in the 20’s, because his other plethora of tools (see spoiler) as a playmaker contributes to a team’s offense. As for defense, Jordan was giving up open shots or fouling too much on Magic, so defense in terms of impact probably shouldn’t be propped up here as a big needle mover in the finals. But for the conference finals, that can be used as a fair point, hence why I’d give Jordan that round.

Spoiler:

You can quite literally watch Magic creating several more open shots than Jordan on average. You can also watch Magic having far better interior reads, far better perimeter reads, far better outlet passing, far better passing ie passing angles, velocity, versatility of passes (lay downs, pocket passing, wrap around passing, kick out passing, ect.). He’s also far better with capitalizing off preset advantages, better passing turnover economy and better quality of creations. He’s also pushing the break at insane levels no one has in the history of basketball, which is why the Pacers were so historically good last year at offense before Halliburton started to plummet as a player and get injured (it’s because he loved getting out into transition). So while he is having the benefit of 3 on 2 situations, he’s sort of the catalyst as to why they’re in these situations that almost automatically lead to buckets. He’s the better on court coach offensively too, I mean, a cool tidbit I’ve seen from Magic was his ability to create illegal defensive calls, though it probably didn’t happen every game. It’s just to show his mind over the game might be bar none.

Overall
I think Magic and Jordan have interesting arguments, but as a better player and season, give me the Magic Man…

Out of curiosity do you think that Magic's best 7-year stretch (can be non-consecutive) was better than Jordan's best 7-year stretch (can also be non-consecutive)?

[AEnigma]

I'd query Hakeem voters on how they feel he added more value than say Malone or D Rob or Barkley, given he played only 56 games and was only healthy enough to start in 50 of them. That's a huge chunk of the season.

I would query you on how you suddenly do not care that Robinson lost 1-3 in the first round as a 2-seed to a team with eleven fewer wins. You seemed awfully invested with “home-court losses to bad teams” just a few years ago; wonder what changed.

[Lebronnygoat]

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.
Playoffs
I believe Magic had the better first two rounds of the playoffs, as he rises vs a 52 win team and the 2nd best defense in the league, and Jordan translates vs a 39 win team and the 12th best defense in the league. 2nd round, Magic rises vs a 44 win team and 23rd ranked defense in the league, and Jordan drops vs a 52 win team and 16th best defense in the league. The level of offensive output these two displayed vs their respective 2nd round opponents shouldn’t really take into consideration the level of defense they played considering both were below league average. 3rd round, Magic translates vs a 63 win team and 3rd best defense in the league, and Jordan rises vs a 50 win team and 4th best defense in the league. Bare in mind, the DPOY of this team only played 18MPG in the final two games of this 4 game series vs 34MPG in the regular season, and their two best big men defenders (James Edwards and Laimbeer) only played ~20MPG in the final two games of this series. While, Laimbeer averages 33MPG in the regular season. Not to mention, Zeke was heavily restricted this series in terms of what he can do, dealing with a sprained ankle from last round and a fractured wrist he’s wearing a cast for. Why are the last two games important, you might ask? Well, because in game 1, that was their best defenders playing their average course of minutes, and Jordan had his worst game of the series or maybe playoff run. 23 points, 53% true shooting. Game 2, however, his play must be acknowledged, dropping 35 on 67% true shooting. Though, what we’re really left here with is very black and white in terms of, how good is Jordan against a true Pistons team. But altogether, this should still be considered a rise. Magic had to face a tougher challenge, going up against a clearly better defense and still being able to create at ATG levels, and be a goat level playmaker when you add in his passing and fast break. Scoring translated. For the 3rd round, Jordan probably will take this. Though, it is more impressive for Magic to get past that 63 win Portland team vs Jordan sweeping that 50 win, deteriorating Detroit team. It’s close, you can’t deny that.
In the Finals, both were at the same efficiency. Jordan indeed did rise, and Magic arguably did, but probably did not. Given that Magic was better in the regular season, it still doesn’t inherently mean Jordan was better. Jordan was able to combine ATG scoring and great playmaking (I tracked 11 creations for teammates per game). Magic was able go combine elite scoring, and goat level playmaking (I tracked 17 creations for teammates per game), but Magic is a special case, where the volume of creations don’t need to be in the 20’s, because his other plethora of tools (see spoiler) as a playmaker contributes to a team’s offense. As for defense, Jordan was giving up open shots or fouling too much on Magic, so defense in terms of impact probably shouldn’t be propped up here as a big needle mover in the finals. But for the conference finals, that can be used as a fair point, hence why I’d give Jordan that round.

Spoiler:

You can quite literally watch Magic creating several more open shots than Jordan on average. You can also watch Magic having far better interior reads, far better perimeter reads, far better outlet passing, far better passing ie passing angles, velocity, versatility of passes (lay downs, pocket passing, wrap around passing, kick out passing, ect.). He’s also far better with capitalizing off preset advantages, better passing turnover economy and better quality of creations. He’s also pushing the break at insane levels no one has in the history of basketball, which is why the Pacers were so historically good last year at offense before Halliburton started to plummet as a player and get injured (it’s because he loved getting out into transition). So while he is having the benefit of 3 on 2 situations, he’s sort of the catalyst as to why they’re in these situations that almost automatically lead to buckets. He’s the better on court coach offensively too, I mean, a cool tidbit I’ve seen from Magic was his ability to create illegal defensive calls, though it probably didn’t happen every game. It’s just to show his mind over the game might be bar none.

Overall
I think Magic and Jordan have interesting arguments, but as a better player and season, give me the Magic Man…

Out of curiosity do you think that Magic's best 7-year stretch (can be non-consecutive) was better than Jordan's best 7-year stretch (can also be non-consecutive)?

87-93 or 88-96 (sans 95) is better than 85-91.