How high is Jokic's ceiling on offence?

[70sFan]

He has very high celling offensively, but I'm not sure if his passing+handles are by far the best ever. Watch some young Sabonis games. I know it's not NBA but this guy was ridiculous.

Right now I have him below top 5, but his potential is higher than that. I don't think he'd ecer surpass Kareem and Shaq though.

Hi 70sFan,

What would he have to do to pass Kareem and Shaq, in your opinion?

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

[Jaivl]

Very tough thread to come back to.

[ty 4191]

He has very high celling offensively, but I'm not sure if his passing+handles are by far the best ever. Watch some young Sabonis games. I know it's not NBA but this guy was ridiculous.

Right now I have him below top 5, but his potential is higher than that. I don't think he'd ecer surpass Kareem and Shaq though.

Hi 70sFan,

What would he have to do to pass Kareem and Shaq, in your opinion?

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

Only because the previous poster only denoted Kareem and Shaq as the two candidates for better peak/prime offensive player than Jokic.

Wilt 1966-1968, IMO, has a strong case as greatest offensive prime ever.

What do you think?

[70sFan]

Hi 70sFan,

What would he have to do to pass Kareem and Shaq, in your opinion?

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

Only because the previous poster only denoted Kareem and Shaq as the two candidates for better peak/prime offensive player than Jokic.

Wilt 1966-1968, IMO, has a strong case as greatest offensive prime ever.

What do you think?

I don't think Wilt is really in conversation for the best offensive prime ever. His horrible FT shooting, weak ball-handling and no range outside 15 feet made him out of conversation.

It doesn't mean he's not a great offensive anchor, but he has too many weaknesses to be considered the best.

[ty 4191]

I don't think Wilt is really in conversation for the best offensive prime ever. His horrible FT shooting, weak ball-handling and no range outside 15 feet made him out of conversation.

It doesn't mean he's not a great offensive anchor, but he has too many weaknesses to be considered the best.

That's quite fair. And, accurate.

I'll just say, though, that a footnote, we should remember that the FG% record all time was .528 by the time 1966-1967 rolled around. By Wilt himself, in 1962-1963. The highest FG% (by anyone else) at that point in a single season was Bellamy, at .519 in 1961-1962.

Consider that Wilt then shot .683 from the field in 67', which is just absolutely absurd given the rims and equipment of that era. He shot .603 the last 610 games of his career, including the playoffs (entire last 7 years of his career). That is totally absurd.

Also, just curious...who are your top 5 players all time for 3 year offensive peaks?

[70sFan]

I don't think Wilt is really in conversation for the best offensive prime ever. His horrible FT shooting, weak ball-handling and no range outside 15 feet made him out of conversation.

It doesn't mean he's not a great offensive anchor, but he has too many weaknesses to be considered the best.

That's quite fair. And, accurate.

I'll just say, though, that a footnote, we should remember that the FG% record all time was .528 by the time 1966-1967 rolled around. By Wilt himself, in 1962-1963. The highest FG% (by anyone else) at that point in a single season was Bellamy, at .519 in 1961-1962.

Consider that Wilt then shot .683 from the field in 67', which is just absolutely absurd given the rims and equipment of that era. He shot .603 the last 610 games of his career, including the playoffs (entire last 7 years of his career). That is totally absurd.

Also, just curious...who are your top 5 players all time for 3 year offensive peaks?

For top 5, my choices would probably be:

1963-65 Oscar
1987-89 Magic
1989-91 Jordan
2016-18 James
2021-23 Jokic

Then one of 1968-70 West, 1977-79 Kareem, 1984-86 Bird, 1999-01 Shaq, 2005-07 Nash and 2015-17 Curry.

[ty 4191]

For top 5, my choices would probably be:

1963-65 Oscar
1987-89 Magic
1989-91 Jordan
2016-18 James
2021-23 Jokic

Then one of 1968-70 West, 1977-79 Kareem, 1984-86 Bird, 1999-01 Shaq, 2005-07 Nash and 2015-17 Curry.

Who had a better prime, 70sFan? Best 10 year span. Curry, or Oscar?

[iggymcfrack]

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

Only because the previous poster only denoted Kareem and Shaq as the two candidates for better peak/prime offensive player than Jokic.

Wilt 1966-1968, IMO, has a strong case as greatest offensive prime ever.

What do you think?

I don't think Wilt is really in conversation for the best offensive prime ever. His horrible FT shooting, weak ball-handling and no range outside 15 feet made him out of conversation.

It doesn't mean he's not a great offensive anchor, but he has too many weaknesses to be considered the best.

I was always puzzled how Wilt’s scoring efficiency didn’t translate into better offense, but your comment about the free throw shooting got me thinking. I wonder how much of it was the one shot non-shooting fouls. I looked it up and I couldn’t find a definitive source but I saw a forum post that said it didn’t change until 1972. His TS% could overrate his actual efficiency if he’s only getting half a point per possession in all those non-shooting fouls.

[rk2023]

Pretty, pretty good.

[DCasey91]

His ceiling is GOAT offensive center to be honest as he’s very much the most flawless one out of the candidates. Called him the Steve Nash but its more like Steve Nash + Dirk level scoring and shooting if you sub the midrange for more 3 ball volume but it’s not like Jokic is uber efficient on the midrange either... yeah he is lol.

The only counter argument I have left is that all the other centres faced more serious defensive anchors throughout their careers.

So essentially what I’m saying is that even with a full career they’ll be a lack of qualitative data on Jokic’s performances vs that type of player.

AD right certainly fits the bill and the Lakers in general are the best equipped to combat him with Lebron as the free safety. So this series to me is going to be a good eye opener either way.

Currently I can comfortably put him second all time behind Kareem in due time but number one doesn’t seem so crazy after all.

The more important question is where does he rank all time? Magic, Jordan, James .... I mean Jokic at 4 doesn’t sound bad

If someone told me there’s going to be a 7”1 center that scores like Dirk, passes like Bird and is too good inside like McHale id be like yep sounds like your getting the best offence you can possibly get.

Scary thing is I reckon you’d get better result if the Nugs focusing on making a legitimate top 5 defensive team for multiple years instead of the other way around.

[OhayoKD]

He has very high celling offensively, but I'm not sure if his passing+handles are by far the best ever. Watch some young Sabonis games. I know it's not NBA but this guy was ridiculous.

Right now I have him below top 5, but his potential is higher than that. I don't think he'd ecer surpass Kareem and Shaq though.

Hi 70sFan,

What would he have to do to pass Kareem and Shaq, in your opinion?

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

unless he folds vs the lakers i think him being ahead of shaq and kareem offensively should be considered a given. The playmaking gap is gigantic. The scoring gap isn't.

[kayess]

Very tough thread to come back to.

Too lazy to read through, but why?

I think I would've said he has an argument for GOAT back in 2020 watching him wreck AD lmao. I don't think he's fundamentally changed since then but he's become better at everything, so really, he could be the best offensive player ever when it's all said and done. I hope that's not too controversial

[tsherkin]

I was always puzzled how Wilt’s scoring efficiency didn’t translate into better offense, but your comment about the free throw shooting got me thinking. I wonder how much of it was the one shot non-shooting fouls. I looked it up and I couldn’t find a definitive source but I saw a forum post that said it didn’t change until 1972. His TS% could overrate his actual efficiency if he’s only getting half a point per possession in all those non-shooting fouls.

I mean, he was wildly efficient, but we saw that later from Dantley as well. I think if we tracked turnovers, we might learn more, but also if we tracked time of possession for him, and then shots created that weren't simple kick-backs and what-not, right? Wilt was very good, but he sometimes struggled with accruing counting stats versus making the right play.

[70sFan]

Hi 70sFan,

What would he have to do to pass Kareem and Shaq, in your opinion?

I would like to see him dominating elite team without being a clear weakness on defensive end to even consider him over Shaq and Kareem?

Why did you mention Kareem and Shaq, but not Wilt by the way?

unless he folds vs the lakers i think him being ahead of shaq and kareem offensively should be considered a given. The playmaking gap is gigantic. The scoring gap isn't.

I meant overall of course, he surpassed them offensively in my opinion.

[70sFan]

For top 5, my choices would probably be:

1963-65 Oscar
1987-89 Magic
1989-91 Jordan
2016-18 James
2021-23 Jokic

Then one of 1968-70 West, 1977-79 Kareem, 1984-86 Bird, 1999-01 Shaq, 2005-07 Nash and 2015-17 Curry.

Who had a better prime, 70sFan? Best 10 year span. Curry, or Oscar?

10 years is a clear choice for me - Oscar by far. 1961-70 vs 2014-23, but Curry missed a whole season in 2020 and consistently missed games in RS and playoffs, while Oscar was fairly durable player outside of 1968.

[TheGOATRises007]

Anyone who's saying Jokic has a potential to be the best offensive C ever is just going overboard, and that's for certain.

Realize this first;
Jokic's age in 2018-19 and 2019-20 would coincide with Kareem's 1970-71 and 1971-72 seasons.

That's not so arguably 2 of Kareem's very best seasons and there's no doubt about his offense in those 2 seasons being pretty much on the same level as peak Jordan, peak James (and maybe peak O'Neal, depending on your view about O'Neal).

Top 3 is the highest he can get. Though I don't think that will happen.

Has your viewpoint changed at all?

[HeartBreakKid]

Anyone who's saying Jokic has a potential to be the best offensive C ever is just going overboard, and that's for certain.

Realize this first;
Jokic's age in 2018-19 and 2019-20 would coincide with Kareem's 1970-71 and 1971-72 seasons.

That's not so arguably 2 of Kareem's very best seasons and there's no doubt about his offense in those 2 seasons being pretty much on the same level as peak Jordan, peak James (and maybe peak O'Neal, depending on your view about O'Neal).

Top 3 is the highest he can get. Though I don't think that will happen.

Has your viewpoint changed at all?

I dont think he post here anymore.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Not meant to call out people, just to show what might have been the sentiment 4 years ago.
I think at this stage he's the consensus best offensive center of all time, the discussion is if he's the offensive goat or not.

What's interesting is that I was expecting him to get there primarily because of his three point shooting. What did put him up there has been his stamina and aggression (that's when he came back thinner after the pandemic stop), sure, but how he improved his touch from 3m. He already flashed that in his second season, but lost it for a few years.
That made him an unstoppable inside scorer, on top of everything else.

[Joao Saraiva]

Not meant to call out people, just to show what might have been the sentiment 4 years ago.
I think at this stage he's the consensus best offensive center of all time, the discussion if he's the offensive goat or not.

What's interesting is that I was expecting him to get there primarily because of his three point shooting. What did put him up there has been his stamina and aggression (that's when he came back thinner after the pandemic stop), sure, but how he improved his touch from 3m. He already flashed that in his second season, but lost it for a few years.
That made him an unstoppable inside scorer, on top of everything else.

Well I've said it a ton of times but if somebody told me he could be a GOAT candidate prime wise I wouldn't believe. Idk if I participated in this thread, but I would have said I wouldn't believe he could be as much of an offensive force as peak Shaq was for example. Still feels unreal to this day that Jokic is doing what he's doing.