Best undrafted after Ben Wallace?

[DCasey91]

This has to be Bruce Bowen. Logged big minutes in 3 championships, even outside of that 8x All Defensive, shot it well from outside, lockdown SF etc.

As role players go very much fits the mould of a perfect compliment.

These players routinely have high leverage outcomes across the board historically on champ winning/good/great teams.

My belief is they themselves hold higher base averages then someone else who is dependent on one or a limited thing.

Players that can go 0/4 and still be a net positive outcome is worth a small weight in gold

The problem is Bowen is unplayable on alot of teams back then. If you don't have Duncan to create overlaps when he's doubled, Bowen kills your offense. The Spurs seemed to manage fine without Bowen too. Like, nice wing defender, a player type somewhat ahead of his time, but only really helps a very specific type of contender.

I disagree a lot.

D Green, Diaw (Post), Allen, Battier, Caruso, Lakers Rondo, Bulls Harper, D Fisher, Older Horry, GP2, Older Iggy

And many more. I dont think its by some divine intervention defensive minded role players for some reason keep bobbing up on wildy successful teams.

Hint. They don't need the ball at all, and can effect the game in a positive way regardless

That first sentence is a straight out lie.

[One_and_Done]

This has to be Bruce Bowen. Logged big minutes in 3 championships, even outside of that 8x All Defensive, shot it well from outside, lockdown SF etc.

As role players go very much fits the mould of a perfect compliment.

These players routinely have high leverage outcomes across the board historically on champ winning/good/great teams.

My belief is they themselves hold higher base averages then someone else who is dependent on one or a limited thing.

Players that can go 0/4 and still be a net positive outcome is worth a small weight in gold

The problem is Bowen is unplayable on alot of teams back then. If you don't have Duncan to create overlaps when he's doubled, Bowen kills your offense. The Spurs seemed to manage fine without Bowen too. Like, nice wing defender, a player type somewhat ahead of his time, but only really helps a very specific type of contender.

I disagree a lot.

D Green, Diaw (Post), Allen, Battier, Caruso, Lakers Rondo, Bulls Harper, D Fisher, Older Horry, GP2, Older Iggy

And many more. I dont think its by some divine intervention defensive minded role players for some reason keep bobbing up on wildy successful teams.

Hint. They don't need the ball at all, and can effect the game in a positive way regardless

That first sentence is a straight out lie.

Most of those guys look like Einstein of offense compared to Bowen.

[DCasey91]

A proper sized player that can shoot and defend the perimeter/inside at an All Defensive level will always find a home always.

In fact I reckon he would be looked at in a more positive light

You do know teams win championships. Not point arguing when your flat wrong. I don't have to say anything

The results speak for themselves

[DCasey91]

The league literally values what he has. We have guys chucking 9 3's game that are bad shooters from there.

Dude would get 5 corner 3's a game today easy as p*ss

[One_and_Done]

Bowen was basically only good at corner 3s. These days you like your 3&D wing to have a bit more versatility and passing than that. Like, you would get away with it today, but he'd be far from the best 3&D wing. Alot of Bowen's handchecking and enforcer tactics wouldn't fly today.

He certainly was viewed as a niche piece in his own era. Just look at his meagre contracts. Teams were not trying to woo him away with big money.

[tsherkin]

Re: obviously an excellent passer in Adelman's system. I would say Webber displayed more passing chops than your average big,

Oh he had great vision and passing touch. I think people liked his flair, but Miller and Divac were at least as effective, if less exciting, filling that particular role on the team.

And of course the throughline here is that they added Brad Miller before '03-04. It's not that you could replace Webber with just any big and the passing would get better, but yeah, Miller was an upgrade over Webber both as a passer and as a don't-chuck-bad-shots guy, and it's not a big surprise that those two things would coincide.

Yes, indeed. And at that point, it's worth noting that they were running the ball more to Peja, so they were easing over the scoring load to someone much more efficient.

Webber was a skilled guy. He was like a 42-44% shooter from 16-23 feet while he was semi-healthy. His issues were things which involved hustle, power/physicality and high effort. He was very much a finesse guy with a lot of skill and talent who just didn't want to do the tough things.

[tsherkin]

Bowen was basically only good at corner 3s. These days you like your 3&D wing to have a bit more versatility and passing than that. Like, you would get away with it today, but he'd be far from the best 3&D wing. Alot of Bowen's handchecking and enforcer tactics wouldn't fly today.

He certainly was viewed as a niche piece in his own era. Just look at his meagre contracts. Teams were not trying to woo him away with big money.

I think he'd probably be a little more than that, but yeah, he wouldn't be anything game breaking. He was like a 41% shooter specifically from the corner in years we have that data. Solid defender, but very dirty. Didn't really give you much else.

[DCasey91]

Tobias got a huge overpay.

Pritchard has a bargain deal.

Using salaries is a terrible argument. Using more skill on the ball is also another one

I shudder when D Green gets to be a guard for some unknown reason, doesn't take away how valuable he is at his best

2 cent Oubre you do know he's in the league right?

I mean I'll stop but this a joke. Why do people downplay players that have done great stuff? You cannot take away what he did.

8x All defensive for a non All Star isn't a large list to start of with

I mean people have the wrong idea about teambuilding and off ball value.

The league literally prioritises switchable perimeter D and off ball shooting. Said before it would be easy as pie to get 5 C&S for any player

[trex_8063]

8x All Defensive and 6x Top 10 (4 of hem top 5) DPOY, 3 rings, this should easily be Bruce Bowen,

Got no problem with someone going with Bruce Bowen, but totally disagree that such a choice is [or should be] "easy".

How much more defensive value per game do you think Bowen (a perimeter defender) inflicts than Fred Van Vleet (a good defender in his own right)......particularly considering Bowen only played 29-33 mpg in his prime (vs 36-37 mpg for FVV).

And does that amount offset the relatively MASSIVE disparity in their offensive value? imo, no it does not.

[One_and_Done]

Tobias got a huge overpay.

Pritchard has a bargain deal.

Using salaries is a terrible argument. Using more skill on the ball is also another one

I shudder when D Green gets to be a guard for some unknown reason, doesn't take away how valuable he is at his best

2 cent Oubre you do know he's in the league right?

I mean I'll stop but this a joke. Why do people downplay players that have done great stuff? You cannot take away what he did.

8x All defensive for a non All Star isn't a large list to start of with

I mean people have the wrong idea about teambuilding and off ball value.

The league literally prioritises switchable perimeter D and off ball shooting. Said before it would be easy as pie to get 5 C&S for any player

Obviously Danny Green is far better than Oubre, but he's better than Bowen too. I think what you're underrating here is the value a 3&D player brings when they can shoot from all around the 3pt line (like Green) as opposed to a guy who can shoot exclusively from the corners only and nowhere else, and also isn't a great passer.