Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

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Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE — Michael Jordan 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Tue Dec 10, 2024 1:30 am

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1995-96.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 20:30PM EST on Thursday, December 12th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by Lebronnygoat » Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:34 am

AEnigma wrote:General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1995-96.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 20:30PM EST on Thursday, December 12th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List
Spoiler:
AEnigma wrote:
Ardee wrote:
Bad Gatorade wrote:
Bastillon wrote:
B-Mitch 30 wrote:
capfan33 wrote:
ceofkobefans wrote:
Djoker wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Dr. Positivity wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Eminence wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
grainmaster200 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
konr0167 wrote:
LA Bird wrote:
Lebronnygoat wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
Narigo wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
Paulluxx9000 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:
toodles23 wrote:
trelos6 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
ZeppelinPage wrote:
70sFan wrote:


Most likely David Robinson.
Spurs added Dominque Wilkins and Vernon Maxwell to replace 40 games of no Sean Elliot and no Chuck Persons. Pretty fair trade off. Bulls lose BJ but add Rodman. Spurs are way worse without Drob than the Bulls are without Jordan. One of the rare years Drob translates into the playoffs too.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:42 am

Michael Jordan is back and the Bulls dominate the league in the RS and win the title. Probably not a coincidence.

Seattle with Payton and Kemp having strong years gets the league's second best RS record and goes to the finals.

Orlando wins 60 as well but it's the Bulls year (and somehow I missed that). Spurs 4th best, Utah 5th. They meet in the second round with the Jazz winning as their 3&D guys shoot over 50% from 3 for the series.

Pretty clear hierarchy. LA and Indiana are the other 50 win teams with Ceballos again scoring much more than anyone else on the team, Indiana has Reggie and Smits doing their scoring.

Jordan leads in points, Rodman in rebounding, Stockton in assists, Payton wins DPOY. Box score compilation stats have David Robinson on top in PER, Jordan in everything else, Karl Malone is third overall in those numbers.

[b]PLAYER OF YEAR
1.Jordan
---------
2. Lot of candidates: Gary Payton (will assume the DPOY voters saw more defense than I remember)
3. David Robinson
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Karl Malone
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by OhayoKD » Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:33 am

Kola's Ballot:
Spoiler:
1996

Arc Highlight - Conference Cross-over, Battle 6

As the King of Buckets morphed into the King of Frauds, an unlikely champion answered the summon: Dennis Rodman became Dennis Boardman, and Chicago School prevailed

Shaquille O’Neal - (Grain Version) Yorozu
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Post-Bound Sphere

Ball Techniques
+ Humpty Bumpty; Reverse Ball Technique - Gravitational Collapse
+ Foul Furnace
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade Grade 1
+ Rim-Protector - Grade 1 2
+ Stoppah - Grade 3
+ Board-Bringer - Special Grade 1

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for everyone acting like he deserved the 2001 MVP, everyone will also act like Hakeem was the Shaq-stopper

Key Chapters:
- Orlando School misses Conference Cross-over
- Sealed for 27 battles


Micheal Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Grade 2 3

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
+ Chicago School wins Conference Cross-over
+ Chicago School Crushes Orlando School
+ Hooper Flash Flurry vs Orlando School - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade; Stoppah - Grade 2
- Hooper Burnout vs Seattle School - Bucket-Getter - Grade 2; Stoppah - Grade 4
- Hooper Burnout vs New York School - Bucket-Getter - Grade 2

Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 24
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
- Hooper burnout vs Seattle School - Bucket Getter - non sorcerer; Rim-Protection - Grade 2

David Robinson - Nanami
Grade: 1 2
Hoop Expansion - Death by Duncan

Ball Techniques:
+ Rim Robber
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 4
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Utah School - Bucket-Getter - non sorcerer; Stoppah - non sorcerer; Rim-Protection - Grade 1

Scottie Pippen - (Grain Version) Mai
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Perimeter Purgatory

Ball Techniques:
+ Biggy Wingy
+ Powah Passer
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 2
+ Stoppah - Special Grade
+ Floor-General - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for playing with MJ, everyone will remember Pippen played with MJ

Key Chapters:
- Hooper burnout vs Seattle School
+ Hooper Flash Flurry vs Orlando School
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by One_and_Done » Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:45 am

It's definitely time to start asking if Jordan was really the best player in the league anymore. I'm dubious I'll have him #1 in 98.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by trelos6 » Tue Dec 10, 2024 4:00 am

OPOY

1.Michael Jordan. He’s back. 31.9 pp75 on +4 rTS%. Team offense was a crazy +7.5. Slight drop in both scoring and efficiency in playoffs.

2.Anfernee Hardaway. 23.2 pp75 on +6.3 rTS%. Drove an efficient offense, +5.2. Stepped up early in Shaq’s absence.

3.Karl Malone. Beats out Stockton, because Stockton didn’t score enough. 27.1 pp75 on +3.3 rTS%. Shaq’s free throw struggles are frustrating, and Robinson was just a step behind. Jazz offense was great, +5.6.


DPOY

1.David Robinson. Still an elite rim protector. Carries the Spurs with Rodman’s departure.

2.Patrick Ewing. Keeps doing Ewing things. Anchoring the Knicks D.

3.Chicago Bulls. I want to give third spot to MJ, Pippen and Rodman collectively. They were the best defensive unit in the regular and post season, and they all rightfully made first team all defense. But alas, I have to choose one, so I’ll go Dennis Rodman. I wouldn’t blink if someone else wanted to have Mutombo, Mourning or Hakeem in their top 3.


POY

1.Michael Jordan. Elite D, Elite O. MJ was spectacular. +6.2 OPIPM, +1.31 DPIPM. +7.51 PIPM. 23.58 Wins Added.

2.David Robinson. When the second best player is Sean Elliott, and your team is winning 50-60 games every season, with SRS in the 5’s, I pay attention. D Rob was elite on both ends to the tune of +3.86 OPIPM, +3.51 DPIPM, +7.37 PIPM. 20.85 Wins Added. Scored 26.2 pp75 on +4.7 rTS% in the RS.

3.Karl Malone. +4.3 OPIPM, +1.19 DPIPM, +5.48 PIPM. 19.24 Wins Added. #3 on my OPOY. Edges out Hardaway for defensive impact.

4.Anfernee Hardaway. Too good to leave off this year. +4.64 OPIPM, +0.24 DPIPM. +4.88 PIPM. 16.19 Wins Added. Shaq normally get’s the spot, but with his thumb injury and extremely poor free throw shooting in the playoffs, he didn’t get the job done in his last season in Orlando.

5.Scottie Pippen. Toss up between a few players. Payton, Kemp both have cases. Sonics were spectacular. Hakeem was still quite good. His ever so reliable scoring and defense, but he fell off hard vs the Sonics. So it comes to Pippen. Another terrific year defensively. +3.32 OPIPM, +1.68 DPIPM, +5.01 PIPM. 17.04 Wins Added. 20.9 pp75 on +0.9 rTS%. Pretty good passer and a decent playmaker.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by Paulluxx9000 » Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:47 am

KembaWalker wrote:i like how everyone that is coming from the same Discord to vote all misspell Michael Jordan the same way
"new voters" or VPN alts, i wonder :lol:

I apologise for misspelling Jordan’s name. Will correct.
1 Shaq
2 Michelle Jordan
3 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 Karl Malone
5 Scottie Pippen
And now it’s Diesel’s time. Terror at the rim at his basket and at your basket. And perhaps more gravity than anyone who has ever played. He’s not an extraordinary passer but he’s good enough that when defenses are sending everyone to stop him you get high-quality and quantity creation even the premier perimeter guys of his league couldn't really rival.
His defense is not perfect. He can get burned and despite his towering size his positioning prevents him from being a Hakeem type rim protector. But he’s a monster still. Didn’t have his best series facing the Bulls but he scored with MJ while opening up the defense and providing far more to his team defensively both via his presence in the paint and his rebounding. Jordan got steals and weakside blocks but that doesn’t change guards should not be graded as matchers for wings and absolutely should not be grades as equals to centers defensively.
I also don’t see Jordan as a goat-level shotblocking guard despite the block averages. Keep in mind most rim protection isn’t actually about jumping to swat a ball on the weakside. It’s mostly preventing that ball from needing to be swatting in the first place and the dimensions like size and height and strength/sturdiness matter more than jumping to touch a ball. Credit where it is due, Jordan’s defense is better now then it was in the first three-peat. He’s still not a modern wing or even some huge outlier among guards but his defense is sturdier and he makes less poor decisions than he did during the first three-peat where he frequently threatened to be a liability due to horrible defensive technique. Still a poor finals performance prevents him from the first spot.
Hakeem could have been 1st or 2nd until he had his 2011 vs the Sonics. IN 93 he was brilliant. In 96 he wilted. He bounces back in 97 but for this year 3 rd is his ceiling to me. He claims his rightful place at the top back one last time next year (and finally overcomes his nemesis) but not or this one.
Malone had himself a heck of a season. A great if predictable scorer(struggling to get big separation at the basket physically) a good passer leveraged into good not elite at making stuff for others and a good defender; good at the rim, good man to man.
Pippen has his best defensive year as the Bulls operate as a defensive juggernaut in the playoffs. Pippen also steps up when Jordan struggles mightily against the Sonics, helping ensure a 3-0 finals lead doesn’t end disastrously
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by KembaWalker » Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:54 am

Paulluxx9000 wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:i like how everyone that is coming from the same Discord to vote all misspell Michael Jordan the same way
"new voters" or VPN alts, i wonder :lol:

I apologise for misspelling Jordan’s name. Will correct.
1 Shaq
2 Michelle Jordan
3 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 Karl Malone
5 Scottie Pippen
And now it’s Diesel’s time. Terror at the rim at his basket and at your basket. And perhaps more gravity than anyone who has ever played. He’s not an extraordinary passer but he’s good enough that when defenses are sending everyone to stop him you get high-quality and quantity creation even the premier perimeter guys of his league couldn't really rival.
His defense is not perfect. He can get burned and despite his towering size his positioning prevents him from being a Hakeem type rim protector. But he’s a monster still. Didn’t have his best series facing the Bulls but he scored with MJ while opening up the defense and providing far more to his team defensively both via his presence in the paint and his rebounding. Jordan got steals and weakside blocks but that doesn’t change guards should not be graded as matchers for wings and absolutely should not be grades as equals to centers defensively.
I also don’t see Jordan as a goat-level shotblocking guard despite the block averages. Keep in mind most rim protection isn’t actually about jumping to swat a ball on the weakside. It’s mostly preventing that ball from needing to be swatting in the first place and the dimensions like size and height and strength/sturdiness matter more than jumping to touch a ball. Credit where it is due, Jordan’s defense is better now then it was in the first three-peat. He’s still not a modern wing or even some huge outlier among guards but his defense is sturdier and he makes less poor decisions than he did during the first three-peat where he frequently threatened to be a liability due to horrible defensive technique. Still a poor finals performance prevents him from the first spot.
Hakeem could have been 1st or 2nd until he had his 2011 vs the Sonics. IN 93 he was brilliant. In 96 he wilted. He bounces back in 97 but for this year 3 rd is his ceiling to me. He claims his rightful place at the top back one last time next year (and finally overcomes his nemesis) but not or this one.
Malone had himself a heck of a season. A great if predictable scorer(struggling to get big separation at the basket physically) a good passer leveraged into good not elite at making stuff for others and a good defender; good at the rim, good man to man.
Pippen has his best defensive year as the Bulls operate as a defensive juggernaut in the playoffs. Pippen also steps up when Jordan struggles mightily against the Sonics, helping ensure a 3-0 finals lead doesn’t end disastrously


I guess if I had 5 alts going I wouldn’t worry about self identifying with a random quote of a post from 3 threads ago either
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by Djoker » Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:36 pm

Jordan a very clear #1 here. Impact numbers are huge as well. With him back in basketball shape, the Bulls just looked unstoppable; by many metrics the greatest team of all time. They added Rodman, lost BJ and made a few other tweaks but MJ being better than in 1995 led most of the improvement. He had a few rough shooting games against Seattle already up 3-0. Seems pretty crazy to demote him based on that.

Not sure how to reconcile Shaq vs. Penny. Shaq had superior impact on a per game basis and I think he has a good case for #2 despite missing a lot of RS games. I don't blame him much for losing to the Bulls in the 1996 ECF. He played well offensively and the defensive collapse was on the entire team. They were just a step slow and got exposed against a juggernaut. But Penny was also fantastic all year with a good case to make a ballot and he didn't miss games.

Then Robinson, Malone are almost locks to make the ballot for their body of work although neither impressed too much in the PS. Hakeem looks like he's going to miss out here after a horrible series against Seattle. There are guys with good PS runs like Payton/Kemp but I don't think they'll make it because they quite simply aren't superstars. Pippen also won't make it due to a late season injury that carried into the PS. He really labored out there but particularly against New York and Seattle.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by AEnigma » Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:38 pm

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Scottie Pippen
2. David Robinson
3. Patrick Ewing


Last year I voted for Pippen as the standout defender on an unexpected #2 (and -4) defence. Now he is the backbone defender of a title-winning #1 defence. And in a year where every contending big other than Ewing was a postseason disappointment, I am much more confident in and comfortable with this choice than I was last year.

The Knicks remain a top five regular season defence, but that is not why I have Ewing on the ballot. After all, he is still not “better” than Hakeem in most defensive scenarios. But Hakeem, after upsetting the favoured Lakers, has the worst series of his career on both ends. The difference with 1993 is stark; that year, Hakeem was unlucky to not win despite a grossly inferior team, but this year, his team was better than in 1993 and he nevertheless was not even close to winning. Still, Hakeem is not alone in his disappointing exit. Here are the Bulls’ estimated offensive ratings by series:

Heat = 118.1 (3-0)
Knicks = 104.4 (4-1)
Magic (no Grant) = 117.6 (4-0)
Sonics = 110.4 (4-2)

The Heat defence was led by Alonzo Mourning. I initially intended to vote him third for his excellent defensive signals: the Heat go 39-31 with him and 3-9 without him this year, and in year-to-year shifts, we see the Hornets collapse defensively (-2.2 —> +4.2) and miss the playoffs, while we see the Heat defence spike (+1.6 —> -3.8). However, if those defensive signals do not translate to the postseason, what are they ultimately worth. And that is where Ewing separates himself. 1996 is the last time Ewing is taken out by Jordan, and in turn he makes the Bulls work for their win one last time.

Speaking of rivalries, Robinson is facing the Jazz for the second of three times. How do the Jazz fare against their competition?

Blazers = 113.0 (3-2)
Spurs = 113.2 (4-2)
Sonics = 104.4 (3-4)

Oh, look at that, yet again the worst performance. Now, saving grace here is that it is not an outlier worst, but if Robinson was the beneficiary of strong postseason defensive results last year (ignoring how that ultimately frames his performance as a “successful” face-to-foot defence against Hakeem), then we should highlight the lack of any defensive success this year. Even against the Suns in the first round, the Spurs’ defence was nothing special. For anyone who cares about the postseason, there is little to reward here. I will give him his due for the regular season, but standards really should be higher for someone often argued as a top three to five defender all-time.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Penny Hardaway
2. Michael Jordan
3. Terrell Brandon


I will highlight Penny in the Player of the Year section, where he takes second almost exclusively because of how impressed I am with his offence. Jordan is asked to do comparatively less: his playmaking load is the lowest it has ever been, and Rodman’s addition spikes the Bulls’ offensive rebounding rate to best in the league. However, as the league’s most voluminous and least turnover-prone scorer on a #1 title-winning offence, he is an easy choice for second (and the next two years I will likely have him first because of how I have been penalising missed time).

Reggie Miller would take this spot but for the postseason injury. Coupled with KJ’s and Shaq’s missed time, that opens space for Terrell Brandon, who quietly has one of the more surprising offensive seasons I have ever seen. The Cavaliers had a +3.8 relative offensive rating in games Brandon played, which is a strong mark for a team with a decent but unspectacular offensive supporting cast. Because the 1996 Cavaliers are the slowest team in league history, Brandon is in the top ten for points among starters per possession, is in the top fifteen for assists among starters per possession, and is the second highest usage guard in the league after Jordan. Brandon’s turnover rate is also more outstanding than it initially appears: by Trex’s modified turnover percentage, Brandon is down at 6%, which I think is basically unprecedented for a point guard (Trex, please let me know if I miscalculated or otherwise used an outdated formula). As an outlier individual peak season in a year where several other top ballot contenders missed significant time, that is enough to slide in to third place.

Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan
2. Penny Hardaway
3. Karl Malone
4. Gary Payton
5. David Robinson


Only real criticism of Jordan this season is that he struggled in the last three games of the Finals. Might be meaningful if another ballot contender had been more impressive in the postseason, but none were.

Penny’s placement is probably aggressive (no one joined my top five vote for him last year, so evidently I am higher on him than the rest of this bloc), but when it comes down to it I am more impressed by him being the leader of a 60-win conference finalist with Shaq missing a third of the year than I am by Malone losing a tight conference finals with a horrific Game 7.
Proxy wrote:Penny 28 games without Shaq in '96
-Averaged 27 per 75 on +10 rTS%
-50 win pace(+3 team without Shaq and with Horace)
-+4 team rORTG

Other stuff from that year:
A top 50 RS AuPM/g peak OAT, top 5 in the league in 1996

#1 in the league according to Pollack's on/off estimates(+17.1) - on a side note the team numbers in *1995* being so similar makes me believe there was maybe some starter substitution stuff going on for those teams, but this year's result was still without Shaq 1/4 of the year so i'd say it's mostly fair

The 96 Magic finished with a rORTG of +5.3 even with Shaq missing 28 games

Shaq missed 28, Horace Grant missed 19. The Magic were a +10 ish SRS team with both iirc...with an offensive rating of 117.6!

After Penny sliced up the Bulls in the 1996 ECF and Shaq departed, the following year they were a respectable +3 team with Horace Grant again (+3 ORtg), only this time Penny missed 21 games and without him the Magic were a -6.5 SRS team w/ a -7.9 ORtg. 

The Orlando Magic had a stellar +7.7 PS Ortg from 95-97 with what i'd call close to 1A 1B situation on offense

That said, Malone played respectably well until then, which is why he stays at third.

I will let Robinson keep a spot on the ballot because he at least manages a more relevant postseason than he did in 1994, but all the criticisms I have previously expressed are still present, as are all the thorough criticisms offered back in the 2010 project (not that most people here seem to read them). On offence he looks like a slightly improved 2009 Finals Dwight Howard when matched up with any remotely stout post defenders, and on defence he falters whenever an opposing offence can successfully pull him from the basket or otherwise demand that he square up by himself against a stouter post scorer. Consistently one of the most infuriating postseason disappointments I have ever seen.

Then I look at Payton. This year he has made a leap as a scorer, which in turn has made him a much more dangerous playmaker and creator. He is dangerous in transition and backing down guards in the half-court. He has established some fantastic chemistry with Kemp, and we see what happens to Kemp’s scoring when he leaves the Sonics in just over a year. And while he is one of the most unjustly celebrated defenders in league history… he does put a lot of pressure on Jordan in the Finals and keeps up his value to his team even as his offence struggles against the most monstrous collection of perimetre defensive talent we may ever see. To me, he and Robinson may as well be on the same postseason tier this year, and Payton accomplished much more, so he goes ahead.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by One_and_Done » Wed Dec 11, 2024 10:30 am

Paulluxx9000 wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:i like how everyone that is coming from the same Discord to vote all misspell Michael Jordan the same way
"new voters" or VPN alts, i wonder :lol:

I apologise for misspelling Jordan’s name. Will correct.
1 Shaq
2 Michelle Jordan
3 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 Karl Malone
5 Scottie Pippen
And now it’s Diesel’s time. Terror at the rim at his basket and at your basket. And perhaps more gravity than anyone who has ever played. He’s not an extraordinary passer but he’s good enough that when defenses are sending everyone to stop him you get high-quality and quantity creation even the premier perimeter guys of his league couldn't really rival.
His defense is not perfect. He can get burned and despite his towering size his positioning prevents him from being a Hakeem type rim protector. But he’s a monster still. Didn’t have his best series facing the Bulls but he scored with MJ while opening up the defense and providing far more to his team defensively both via his presence in the paint and his rebounding. Jordan got steals and weakside blocks but that doesn’t change guards should not be graded as matchers for wings and absolutely should not be grades as equals to centers defensively.
I also don’t see Jordan as a goat-level shotblocking guard despite the block averages. Keep in mind most rim protection isn’t actually about jumping to swat a ball on the weakside. It’s mostly preventing that ball from needing to be swatting in the first place and the dimensions like size and height and strength/sturdiness matter more than jumping to touch a ball. Credit where it is due, Jordan’s defense is better now then it was in the first three-peat. He’s still not a modern wing or even some huge outlier among guards but his defense is sturdier and he makes less poor decisions than he did during the first three-peat where he frequently threatened to be a liability due to horrible defensive technique. Still a poor finals performance prevents him from the first spot.
Hakeem could have been 1st or 2nd until he had his 2011 vs the Sonics. IN 93 he was brilliant. In 96 he wilted. He bounces back in 97 but for this year 3 rd is his ceiling to me. He claims his rightful place at the top back one last time next year (and finally overcomes his nemesis) but not or this one.
Malone had himself a heck of a season. A great if predictable scorer(struggling to get big separation at the basket physically) a good passer leveraged into good not elite at making stuff for others and a good defender; good at the rim, good man to man.
Pippen has his best defensive year as the Bulls operate as a defensive juggernaut in the playoffs. Pippen also steps up when Jordan struggles mightily against the Sonics, helping ensure a 3-0 finals lead doesn’t end disastrously

How can Shaq be #1 when he only played 52 games.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Wed Dec 11, 2024 10:38 am

This is a tough year. I don't think Jordan was as good as he was in the early 90s, but with Shaq missing so many games it's tough to put him over Jordan. Hakeem got owned by the Sonics again, and D.Rob continued to play a little worse in the playoffs. In fairness to D.Rob, he had a really bad support cast. It's remarkable how much he carried it. D.Rob's combined lift in the RS & PS gets him to #2 for me though. I honestly didn't expect to be voting for MJ again, especially with his bad finals, but there's nobody else to put over him. He was also excellent in other pivotal series, including against Penny and Shaq.

1. Jordan
2. D.Rob
3. Penny
4. Hakeem
5. K.Malone

HM: Pippen. Shaq would be my #2 if he didn't miss so many games.

I may have Hakeem too low tbh. I'll have to think about whether he was really worse than Mailman this year.

Penny could arguably be higher too. He ascended into a legit star this year. His peak is right up there with other MVP candidates.

EDIT: I bumped Malone down. I can't put him over peak Hakeem or Penny
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by Hook_Em » Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:17 pm

Penny getting two 1st place MVP votes that year is crazy.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by konr0167 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 11:25 pm

1. Jordan

72 wins MVP Finals MVP. Great year. Finals play was pretty middling and his teammates saved him from a really terrible collapse but no one was amazing in the playoffs so just going to go with the best guy on an amazing team.

2. David Robinson

Maybe the best RS player and one playoff he played up to par so yeah. Only time he’s outplayed Malone I think.

3. Hakeem

Good regular season and really good through 2 rounds but kind of choked vs Seattle. D was not great. If he’d played like normal playoff Hakeem I’d maybe vote him 1st but can’t really do with maybes.


4. Shaq

Penny was better in the regular season but you could maybe say Shaq was the best player of the playoffs though getting swept isn’t a good look.


5. Penny

Underrated player and has to get something for leading Orlando to 60 wins
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 11:38 pm

Djoker wrote:
Not sure how to reconcile Shaq vs. Penny. Shaq had superior impact on a per game basis and I think he has a good case for #2 despite missing a lot of RS games. I don't blame him much for losing to the Bulls in the 1996 ECF. He played well offensively and the defensive collapse was on the entire team. They were just a step slow and got exposed against a juggernaut. But Penny was also fantastic all year with a good case to make a ballot and he didn't miss games.



I'm not sure it is actually a given that Shaq had superior impact on a per game basis much less over the course of a full season. By something like bpm its easily the worst rs of Shaq's prime after his rookie season and Penny carried the team fine when he was out.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Thu Dec 12, 2024 1:45 am

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - David Robinson
3 - Hakeem
4 - Shaq
5 - Scottie Pippen

72 wins is bonkers and I think if no one's going to go insane in the playoffs Hakeem style you kind of got to give it to MJ, incredible team and all. I get he wasn't amazing in the finals and there's all these problems and flaws with his game alot of people including some guys here really don't want to talk about but I feel like it's a little much to vote Shaq because you prefer this or that. Magic were pretty good when Shaq went to La La land and he doesn't even get a game. It's not as bananas as 95 where Hakeem's team is worse and he loses anyway but this feels like a few of the MJ votes where people just feel he's best so he is. Like I appreciate you guys explaining why you think it and it's cool to know you think he's a grade 1 bucket getter or that he had the most gravity but what's the point of all that if you have good teams and are just getting swept by guys you're supposed to be better than?

Yeah Robinsons a playoff choker but I can't go with the whole wow he did it when it matters thing for Malone when he shoots like 49 percent the series is close. Like we were all into wins and how teams do when you're not there with everyone else but Spurs win 20 games the next year but almost making the Conference Finals and winning 59 games isn't enough to be top 3? 1 makes more sense imo.

The whole 180 on Hakeem is allot for me too. If he was 1 no doubt when he carries a bad team to 47 wins but then he carries them to 48 wins and an upset of a 50-win I'm not going to say he's barely or not even top 5 because he has a bad series.

72 wins is alot and if MJ is this not that perfect player then I think I have to give Pippen his flowers.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Scottie Pippen
2 - Patrick Ewing
3 - David Robinson

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Shaq
3 - Karl Malone
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by One_and_Done » Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:06 am

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - Michael Jordan
2 - David Robinson
3 - Hakeem
4 - Shaq
5 - Scottie Pippen

72 wins is bonkers and I think if no one's going to go insane in the playoffs Hakeem style you kind of got to give it to MJ, incredible team and all. I get he wasn't amazing in the finals and there's all these problems and flaws with his game alot of people including some guys here really don't want to talk about but I feel like it's a little much to vote Shaq because you prefer this or that. Magic were pretty good when Shaq went to La La land and he doesn't even get a game. It's not as bananas as 95 where Hakeem's team is worse and he loses anyway but this feels like a few of the MJ votes where people just feel he's best so he is. Like I appreciate you guys explaining why you think it and it's cool to know you think he's a grade 1 bucket getter or that he had the most gravity but what's the point of all that if you have good teams and are just getting swept by guys you're supposed to be better than?

Yeah Robinsons a playoff choker but I can't go with the whole wow he did it when it matters thing for Malone when he shoots like 49 percent the series is close. Like we were all into wins and how teams do when you're not there with everyone else but Spurs win 20 games the next year but almost making the Conference Finals and winning 59 games isn't enough to be top 3? 1 makes more sense imo.

The whole 180 on Hakeem is allot for me too. If he was 1 no doubt when he carries a bad team to 47 wins but then he carries them to 48 wins and an upset of a 50-win I'm not going to say he's barely or not even top 5 because he has a bad series.

72 wins is alot and if MJ is this not that perfect player then I think I have to give Pippen his flowers.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Scottie Pippen
2 - Patrick Ewing
3 - David Robinson

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Shaq
3 - Karl Malone

I keep asking people who vote Shaq; how can you vote for a guy who played only 52 games? I haven't really seen an explanation.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:11 am

One_and_Done wrote:I keep asking people who vote Shaq; how can you vote for a guy who played only 52 games? I haven't really seen an explanation.


Not only the 52 games but I don't think he even has much of any argument for being ranked above a teammate. It also likely grades out as the worst season of his prime even when on the court.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:16 am

One_and_Done wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - Michael Jordan
2 - David Robinson
3 - Hakeem
4 - Shaq
5 - Scottie Pippen

72 wins is bonkers and I think if no one's going to go insane in the playoffs Hakeem style you kind of got to give it to MJ, incredible team and all. I get he wasn't amazing in the finals and there's all these problems and flaws with his game alot of people including some guys here really don't want to talk about but I feel like it's a little much to vote Shaq because you prefer this or that. Magic were pretty good when Shaq went to La La land and he doesn't even get a game. It's not as bananas as 95 where Hakeem's team is worse and he loses anyway but this feels like a few of the MJ votes where people just feel he's best so he is. Like I appreciate you guys explaining why you think it and it's cool to know you think he's a grade 1 bucket getter or that he had the most gravity but what's the point of all that if you have good teams and are just getting swept by guys you're supposed to be better than?

Yeah Robinsons a playoff choker but I can't go with the whole wow he did it when it matters thing for Malone when he shoots like 49 percent the series is close. Like we were all into wins and how teams do when you're not there with everyone else but Spurs win 20 games the next year but almost making the Conference Finals and winning 59 games isn't enough to be top 3? 1 makes more sense imo.

The whole 180 on Hakeem is allot for me too. If he was 1 no doubt when he carries a bad team to 47 wins but then he carries them to 48 wins and an upset of a 50-win I'm not going to say he's barely or not even top 5 because he has a bad series.

72 wins is alot and if MJ is this not that perfect player then I think I have to give Pippen his flowers.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Scottie Pippen
2 - Patrick Ewing
3 - David Robinson

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Shaq
3 - Karl Malone

I keep asking people who vote Shaq; how can you vote for a guy who played only 52 games? I haven't really seen an explanation.

Is missing regular season games really a big deal? Shaq had better stats in the playoffs and everyone seems to prefer his game anyway.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1995-96 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by One_and_Done » Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:27 am

What if Shaq missed 60 games then, but played in the playoffs? Is that OK too? Like, RS matters too. If Penny wasn't on the Magic, then Shaq fails to make the playoffs this year. That seems relevant.

It feels weird to claim he had a bigger Impact than Penny, who carried the team just fine without him.
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