Retro Player of the Year 1996-97 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

[ShaqAttac]

PENNY
best impact of anyone and mega wowy and then goes crazy dropping 36 on same team mj and ewing choke against. i thought he was just shaqs sidekick but he carried shaq last year and doing some mega carrying this year on his own. outplays mj vs the same opp

HAKEEM
Great D and Good O and goes crazy vs Malone despite chuck choke. His rs kind of sucks tho.

MJ
seems like he chokes a bunch. still wins 69 and a chip and fmvp. I'm not givin him credit for his d carrying tho

ZO
Great d and cooks MJ's O. Gets a dub vs MJ superteam too.

MALONE
got stockton and horneack and still can't get it done. Mj got a superteam but so does he. can't be getting outplayed by stockton and go top 3.

[Djoker]

I'm saying this for the umpteenth time but when talking about overall offensive efficiency, turnovers have to be part of the conversation. Jordan had a huge offensive load and yet averaged just 2.6 turnovers per game in the PS. So yes, even with +0.2 rTS, he was still very efficient.

[One_and_Done]

PENNY
best impact of anyone and mega wowy and then goes crazy dropping 36 on same team mj and ewing choke against. i thought he was just shaqs sidekick but he carried shaq last year and doing some mega carrying this year on his own. outplays mj vs the same opp

HAKEEM
Great D and Good O and goes crazy vs Malone despite chuck choke. His rs kind of sucks tho.

MJ
seems like he chokes a bunch. still wins 69 and a chip and fmvp. I'm not givin him credit for his d carrying tho

ZO
Great d and cooks MJ's O. Gets a dub vs MJ superteam too.

MALONE
got stockton and horneack and still can't get it done. Mj got a superteam but so does he. can't be getting outplayed by stockton and go top 3.

Penny played 59 games this year. He had the Magic on a 52 win pace when he did play, but hard to see that as being enough to be #1.

[capfan33]

I'm saying this for the umpteenth time but when talking about overall offensive efficiency, turnovers have to be part of the conversation. Jordan had a huge offensive load and yet averaged just 2.6 turnovers per game in the PS. So yes, even with +0.2 rTS, he was still very efficient.

Especially at this point, MJ didn’t handle or pass that much and was predominantly focused on scoring. So his turnovers being low is not some ultimate trump card that invalidates whatever other issues he might have, especially if we’re talking about his low turnovers compensating essentially having a league average TS in the playoffs. It’s a nice bonus, but nothing more.

[eminence]

We have four factor impact stats (in this case - how a players presences changes team turnovers), and 2nd Bulls 3peat MJ is cleanly the best at limiting team turnovers that we've seen in the pbp era. Even Wizards MJ was still the best in the league.

Around +4 pts/100 of impact in Chicago (closer to +2.25 in Washington). CP3 topped out around +2.75 in 3 season samples, Conley +2.5. I want to say prime Kobe was at +2.25, nobody else has gotten clear of +2.0.

MJ was a class above anyone else at limitiing turnovers, and I'd say it's his most valuable skill, certainly more than 'a nice bonus'.

[ceoofkobefans]

Quick ballot since im voting so late.

POY
1. MJ

pretty easy first place in a weaker year of talent. MJ is slightly worse than 96 but still is an all time level player as the best player on the clear best team in the league (said bulls were still playing like the best team in the league team in the league in 27 games without Rodman). Still a quality defender but not quite his peak levels (similar to bean during 08-10) and is the best offensive player in the league with an impressive PO run leading to his 5th ring despite lackluster PO efficiency (granted he was averaging 33.1 Adjusted PTS/75 and had the highest PO Load).

2. Karl Malone

Thought about giving this to shaq but I'll give the edge to Malone since he played all 82 and shaq missed 31 games. 97 is the last year of prime stockton, but it's also when Malone has a second peak (starting in 96 which i missed) improving as a playmaker and shooter, and the Jazz O starts to run through malone more (and is where the stockton entry pass to malone narrative starts to have more merit). The Jazz are the second best team in the league with their star duo with Malone finally being the clear best player on the jazz (although he has his pattoned PO drop and stockton has a great PO run)

3. Shaquille O'Neal

Now if we were doing when healthy I think Shaq would have a legitimate argument for BITW but the missed games does drag him down. The Lakers also stayed pretty above far above water without Shaq going 18-13 (48 win Pace) with a +2.7 NRTG without Shaq (49 win pace) which makes sense playing with Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones.

4. Grant Hill

Atp where I'm just tryna get my vote out so quick. Elite Offensive engine peaked as a fringe all time playmaker this year bad shooter still which hurts him.

5. Patrick Ewing

Was stuck between him and Hakeem but I'll give the edge to Ewing since he was still doing pretty solid floor raising jobs on the knicks and the Rockets were more of a two man show with hakeem and barkley and kinda tanked without barkley.

OPOY

1. MJ
2. Shaq
3. Karl
HM: Penny, Hill

DPOY
1. Dikembe
2. Zo
3. Ewing
HM: Tyrone Hill,

[Narigo]

Not voting this time around but my top 5 would be

1. Jordan
2.Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Hill
5. Pippen

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 15 approved votes: Djoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, ceoofkobefans, ShaqAttac, ILikeShaiGuys, OhayoKD (submitting “kola’s” ballot as his official one), LA Bird, penbeast0, capfan33, konr0167, Paulluxx, One_and_Done, Lebronnygoat, and trelos. DJoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, trelos, ceoofkobefans, LA Bird, OhayoKD, and ILikeShaiGuys voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1996-97 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Michael Jordan (4) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Michael Jordan   8   0   0    40    1.000
2. Penny Hardaway   0   3   2    11    0.275
3. Karl Malone   0   2   2    8    0.200
4. Shaquille O’Neal   0   2   1    7    0.175
5. Isaiah Rider  0   1   0    3    0.075
6. Grant Hill   0   0   1    1    0.025
6. Kevin Johnson  0   0   1    1    0.025
6. Hersey Hawkins  0   0   1    1    0.025

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Dikembe Mutombo

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Dikembe Mutombo  5   2   1    32    0.800
2. Alonzo Mourning    2   2   1    17    0.425
3. Patrick Ewing   0   2   2    8    0.200
4. Scottie Pippen    1   0   1    6    0.150
5. Hakeem Olajuwon    0   1   2    5    0.125
6. Dale Davis    0   1   0    3    0.075
7. Shaquille O’Neal    0   0   1    1    0.025

Retro Player of the Year — Michael Jordan (5)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan  9  3  3  0  0   126   0.840
2. Hakeem Olajuwon  4  4  3  1  1   87   0.580
3. Karl Malone   1  6  2  3  1   72   0.480
4. Shaquille O’Neal  0  2  3  2  1    36   0.240
5. Penny Hardaway  1  0  1  3  2   26   0.173
6. Scottie Pippen   0  0  0  2  7   13   0.087
7. Grant Hill   0  0  1  2  0   11   0.073
8. Alonzo Mourning  0  0  0  2  0   6    0.040
8. Patrick Ewing   0  0  1  0  1   6   0.040
9. Dikembe Mutombo  0  0  1  0  0   5   0.033
11. Gary Payton   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007
11. Hersey Hawkins   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007

In the prior project, there were 21 votes, with no overlap. These are the aggregated results of the two projects across 36 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan  29  4  3  0  0   333   0.925
2. Karl Malone   2  23  5  3  1   216   0.600
3. Hakeem Olajuwon  4  6  10  10  3   165   0.458
4. Grant Hill   0  0  11  6  3   76   0.211
5. Shaquille O’Neal  0  2  3  3  4    42   0.117
6. Scottie Pippen   0  1  0  6  13   38   0.106
7. Penny Hardaway  1  0  1  3  3   27   0.075
8. Patrick Ewing   0  0  1  2  2   13   0.036
9. Gary Payton   0  0  0  1  5   8   0.022
10. Alonzo Mourning  0  0  0  2  0   6    0.017
11. Dikembe Mutombo  0  0  1  0  0   5   0.014
11. John Stockton 0  0  1  0  0   5   0.014
13. Hersey Hawkins   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003
13. Glen Rice  0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003

1998 thread will open shortly.

[LA Bird]

We have four factor impact stats (in this case - how a players presences changes team turnovers), and 2nd Bulls 3peat MJ is cleanly the best at limiting team turnovers that we've seen in the pbp era. Even Wizards MJ was still the best in the league.

Around +4 pts/100 of impact in Chicago (closer to +2.25 in Washington). CP3 topped out around +2.75 in 3 season samples, Conley +2.5. I want to say prime Kobe was at +2.25, nobody else has gotten clear of +2.0.

MJ was a class above anyone else at limitiing turnovers, and I'd say it's his most valuable skill, certainly more than 'a nice bonus'.

Where are you finding four factor RAPM? I remember nbashotcharts and gotbuckets used to have them but both sites have died and never had FFAPM in the 90s IIRC.

[eminence]

We have four factor impact stats (in this case - how a players presences changes team turnovers), and 2nd Bulls 3peat MJ is cleanly the best at limiting team turnovers that we've seen in the pbp era. Even Wizards MJ was still the best in the league.

Around +4 pts/100 of impact in Chicago (closer to +2.25 in Washington). CP3 topped out around +2.75 in 3 season samples, Conley +2.5. I want to say prime Kobe was at +2.25, nobody else has gotten clear of +2.0.

MJ was a class above anyone else at limitiing turnovers, and I'd say it's his most valuable skill, certainly more than 'a nice bonus'.

Where are you finding four factor RAPM? I remember nbashotcharts and gotbuckets used to have them but both sites have died and never had FFAPM in the 90s IIRC.

I don't know of one that goes back to the 90s publicly, but nbarapm has a 6 factor version (combines EFG% and FT/FGA) going back to '00-'02 for 3 year stints I believe.

https://www.nbarapm.com/datasets/six_factor

[capfan33]

We have four factor impact stats (in this case - how a players presences changes team turnovers), and 2nd Bulls 3peat MJ is cleanly the best at limiting team turnovers that we've seen in the pbp era. Even Wizards MJ was still the best in the league.

Around +4 pts/100 of impact in Chicago (closer to +2.25 in Washington). CP3 topped out around +2.75 in 3 season samples, Conley +2.5. I want to say prime Kobe was at +2.25, nobody else has gotten clear of +2.0.

MJ was a class above anyone else at limitiing turnovers, and I'd say it's his most valuable skill, certainly more than 'a nice bonus'.

Good post, I would be curious to see more details about these numbers.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

I’m confused, do we troll on here? I am looking at your 1991 voting and you have Barkley over Jordan…? Now, Hakeem is 1997 POY because of his fantastic series vs Utah? Geez…

What do you mean by creating as well? In terms of generating open shots for your teammates? That would need to be tracked extensively. Jordan actually used to create a lot for his team as a rookie but he suppressed that amount of on ball playmaking into a sweet spot so he can fit next to other players which turned him into one of the most scalable and portable players ever, being arguably the GOAT ceiling raiser. This is actually what LeBron had to do when he peaked in Miami. Furthermore, we should also track how many times are these guys failing to capitalize on these creations whether it be through missed shots, reads, defense, quality of shot (dependent on player), rotating in time and also the defensive scheme. Teams will double in hopes for a contested shot, turnover or to be funneled into rim protection. Playing off ball within a scheme makes your team infinitely more versatile and harder to scheme against.

Is this for me? Like I said why there but I guess can say it again? Barkley's TS was like 10 percent higher going against defense i think poy guys did an okay job saying was pretty stacked even earlier and then poy guys went to pretty deep eyetests that made me think the passing and defense isn't so big for MJ. Like MJ's thing is scoring and he was alot worse so I feel saying he was outplayed is just facts.

Guys going for Magic and Hakeem sent some of the stuff you're talking about. Guys going for MJ didn't really do anything but spreadsheet this and that and well old people think it's different so why be woah what happened when he gets low votes.