David Robinson vs Kevin Garnett

[DCasey91]

Iggy has a system that is basically 100% advanced stats. I asked him once if someone would need to watch games to rank players using his methodology, and he told me no, not really. I have KG top 10, but lower half of the top 10 is as high as he can go.

I’m so sick of you trying to talk for me all the time. Like yes, I trust numbers over the eye test, but there are a lot of subjective factors that come in to play. For instance in KG’s case, the fact that he was coached so terribly in Minnesota and they didn’t build a system around his defensive skills at the rim.

I have KG #6 overall but in the same tier as the 3-7 guys while Robinson is significantly lower in the next tier at #11.

Neither Garnett or Robinson are within the top 11 players of all time:

Jordan
Kareem
James
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Wilt
Kobe
Curry
Jokic
Durant

Thats 14 players who should be ranked higher just off the top of my head. Garnett is the most overrated player on this forum lol it’s ridiculous. Dirk should be ranked over Garnett. There is more to basketball than stats.

Our top 15 is pretty similar, Wilt's ranking is hard to gauge because his peak is so great (Wish NBA would release more archives stuff for the public or as much that has been saved)

I agree with Dirk over Garnett and both not in the top 11. I just don't consider them to be true 1 options when basically everyone else is sans Russell (Though context matters a great deal obviously)

I look at it as a more relation between 1/2 for them where they can be the outright best player on a championship team overall but I don't think you get more bites at the cherry vs being the 1st option.

I think posters here miss the outlandish capability especially in a series when player X can go scorched earth and put the team on it's back when the pressure to put on scoreboard pressure is at its highest point Giannis has already done it.

I cannot remember a time in playoffs I've watched so far (80% of what I wanted since 1980) where this wasn't the case. Outside of the Kings series for Garnett never had that feeling he could actually put a team over the top through individual pressure.

Means to say games tight your number is called you are the man wer'e going through you and the team lives and dies by it.

Now the performance of the support players varies on the outcome of game from game to game but not the initial part being you have to do it your the best player on the team.

[DimesandKnicks]

I’m so sick of you trying to talk for me all the time. Like yes, I trust numbers over the eye test, but there are a lot of subjective factors that come in to play. For instance in KG’s case, the fact that he was coached so terribly in Minnesota and they didn’t build a system around his defensive skills at the rim.

I have KG #6 overall but in the same tier as the 3-7 guys while Robinson is significantly lower in the next tier at #11.

Neither Garnett or Robinson are within the top 11 players of all time:

Jordan
Kareem
James
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Wilt
Kobe
Curry
Jokic
Durant

Thats 14 players who should be ranked higher just off the top of my head. Garnett is the most overrated player on this forum lol it’s ridiculous. Dirk should be ranked over Garnett. There is more to basketball than stats.

Our top 15 is pretty similar, Wilt's ranking is hard to gauge because his peak is so great (Wish NBA would release more archives stuff for the public or as much that has been saved)

I agree with Dirk over Garnett and both not in the top 11. I just don't consider them to be true 1 options when basically everyone else is sans Russell (Though context matters a great deal obviously)

I look at it as a more relation between 1/2 for them where they can be the outright best player on a championship team overall but I don't think you get more bites at the cherry vs being the 1st option.

I think posters here miss the outlandish capability especially in a series when player X can go scorched earth and put the team on it's back when the pressure to put on scoreboard pressure is at its highest point Giannis has already done it.

I cannot remember a time in playoffs I've watched so far (80% of what I wanted since 1980) where this wasn't the case. Outside of the Kings series for Garnett never had that feeling he could actually put a team over the top through individual pressure.

Means to say games tight your number is called you are the man wer'e going through you and the team lives and dies by it.

Now the performance of the support players varies on the outcome of game from game to game but not the initial part being you have to do it your the best player on the team.

If you trade Dirk for Garnett Dirk becomes nothing more than a how good would player A be in this era topic. The Mavs, in my opinion are better with Nash, Finley and Kg and all the other different iterations of the Mavs while that championship team would have been one of the greatest defenses of all time with a front court of KG Chandler and Marion, and KG gets to be more of an offensive force without having to anchor a defense

[iggymcfrack]

Buddy with the silliness that you post on here you have no credibility lol……do you read the responses on here to your post?

The man with 1 dubious MVP who was never the best player in the league doesn't belong on a list of guys clearly better than KG. If KG doesn't get hurt in 09, and fall out of his prime, then Kobe only has 3 titles and is remembered by history as Shaq's prima Donna sidekick.

He got 82 first place votes. How is that dubious lol?

Kobe in 2008 was the last player until Embiid 15 years later to win MVP without leading the league in a single advanced stat and it’s not like there was anything special about his non-box contribution. At the same time, Englemann ranks KG in 2008 as the second best season of the decade.

[iggymcfrack]

Iggy has a system that is basically 100% advanced stats. I asked him once if someone would need to watch games to rank players using his methodology, and he told me no, not really. I have KG top 10, but lower half of the top 10 is as high as he can go.

I’m so sick of you trying to talk for me all the time. Like yes, I trust numbers over the eye test, but there are a lot of subjective factors that come in to play. For instance in KG’s case, the fact that he was coached so terribly in Minnesota and they didn’t build a system around his defensive skills at the rim.

I have KG #6 overall but in the same tier as the 3-7 guys while Robinson is significantly lower in the next tier at #11.

Neither Garnett or Robinson are within the top 11 players of all time:

Jordan
Kareem
James
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Wilt
Kobe
Curry
Jokic
Durant

Thats 14 players who should be ranked higher just off the top of my head. Garnett is the most overrated player on this forum lol it’s ridiculous. Dirk should be ranked over Garnett. There is more to basketball than stats.

Same tier as KG, arguably better:
Shaq

Better than Robinson but not as good as KG:
Curry, Russell

Same tier as Robinson, arguably better:
Magic, Dirk, Bird

Clearly below both KG and Robinson:
Wilt

Multiple tiers below KG and Robinson and insulting to be compared to them:
Kobe, Durant

[iggymcfrack]

Iggy has a system that is basically 100% advanced stats. I asked him once if someone would need to watch games to rank players using his methodology, and he told me no, not really. I have KG top 10, but lower half of the top 10 is as high as he can go.

I’m so sick of you trying to talk for me all the time. Like yes, I trust numbers over the eye test, but there are a lot of subjective factors that come in to play. For instance in KG’s case, the fact that he was coached so terribly in Minnesota and they didn’t build a system around his defensive skills at the rim.

I have KG #6 overall but in the same tier as the 3-7 guys while Robinson is significantly lower in the next tier at #11.

If let's say Game 3 WCF 04 you wouldn't watch it but point to stats basic/advanced what have you how would you read it out?

Game 3 of the ‘04 Western Conference Finals I’m sure I watched at the time. I remember being into that series. Do I remember anything about the game in particular 20 years later? No. That’s why to jog my memory, I’d look at the numbers and rely on those rather than try to remember what I was thinking watching a basketball game when I was 19.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You can watch for yourself

https://youtu.be/adI4ALF8-dw?si=FdSiBZoZl0S5nv2I

By the time Garnet gathers for his shot there are three defenders around him. Dirk is pretty much single covered for the entire game even though a lot of that has to do with his midrange game not allowing team defense to converge on him and I see Mitchell and Smith guarding him more than KG. Also Dirk at times was literally playing with four other guys who could shoot threes, so you can’t really help defensively

What’s more having two 20 point scorers when they’re playing pretty much the entire game and benefitting from a focus on KG isn’t that impressive. It’s not like Wally was creating his own shot and he only shot 22 percent from three

So what? Great interior offensive anchors p face more than 1 defender from time to time. Some big shocker! The bolded is not true.

5:11 & 5:18 Garnett commits b2b turnovers vs Dirk 1 on 1 with no help. 1 he fumbles a entry pass, the other he travels.

6:59 he travels again 1 on 1 vs Dirk in transition. 7:54 Dirk guards him 1 on 1 on the baseline and forces him to miss.

There is no conclusive proof KG was facing some outworldly defensive strategy. At least Robinson in 95 was trying to score against a Center on a historic tear.

KG on the other hand was facing a Dallas team 25th in Dtrg and 28th out of 29 in ppg allowed. What's not impressive is that Wally and Chauncey shot better from the floor in that series than KG did.

Cherry picking seconds of him not being swarmed on offensive doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The tape is right there. I’m just combatting the idea that Dirk torched Garnet when Garnett one didn’t appear to be the primary defender, two, he was facing single coverage because he had four other shooters around him, and three Garnet was being swarmed on a team that lacked three point shooting and those 20 point scored per 36 would have averaged 16 points

Yeah right. Inefficient KG couldnt even score vs Dirk in 1 on 1 situations without defensive help when needed be. Funny how there's more footage of Robinson trying to guard Hakeem in any of those 6 games than there was of KG trying to cool Dirks red hot hand when getting broomed out the playoffs

Overrated.

[DCasey91]

I’m so sick of you trying to talk for me all the time. Like yes, I trust numbers over the eye test, but there are a lot of subjective factors that come in to play. For instance in KG’s case, the fact that he was coached so terribly in Minnesota and they didn’t build a system around his defensive skills at the rim.

I have KG #6 overall but in the same tier as the 3-7 guys while Robinson is significantly lower in the next tier at #11.

If let's say Game 3 WCF 04 you wouldn't watch it but point to stats basic/advanced what have you how would you read it out?

Game 3 of the ‘04 Western Conference Finals I’m sure I watched at the time. I remember being into that series. Do I remember anything about the game in particular 20 years later? No. That’s why to jog my memory, I’d look at the numbers and rely on those rather than try to remember what I was thinking watching a basketball game when I was 19.

Understandable. But is it reasonable to assume you lose out on the context and viewing if purely relying on stats as they themselves solely don't tell the story

[OhayoKD]

KG was better over a longer period of time, but Robinson had a better peak.

Every other post gonna say KG overrated.

This is how I feel-both top 20 guys, and there is no wrong answer. I actually have them both on my all time team (where you can only pick 1 top 10 guy and 2 top 20 guys)

DRob/KG/Pippen or Leonard/MJ/CP3-I love defense

I guess if we conveniently forget 2004 this makes sense

[AbeVigodaLive]

That is factually incorrect. Quit trying to downgrade KG's teammates to make him comparable to Robinson. Also, Robinson didn't come straight into the NBA from high school. He did his service first, then came aboard. Let's give Robinson another 4 more years to his career and see how it plays out.

Are you sure about that? Wally Szczerbiak was clearly Garnett's best or most decorated teammate for at least two seasons, and as many as four seasons.

Isaiah Rider to Tom Gugliotta to Stephon Marbury to Terrell Brandon to Wally Szczerbiak to Sam Cassell to Ricky Davis.




[Note: Gugliotta (97), Szczerbiak (02) and Cassell (04) all made one ASG as Garnett's teammates. Szczerbiak had the longest run with Garnett (1999 - 2006).]

You left out Chauncey Billups, Kendall Gill, Marc Jackson, Anthony Peeler, Joe Smith, Latrell Sprewell, to name a few.

What are you trying to do here?

I corrected you by mentioning Szczerbiak was indeed Garnett's 2nd best teammate for a spell... and then you bring up something entirely off topic.

Unless you're saying Marc Jackson was once Garnett's 2nd best teammate? If so... maybe that should be its own thread. Would be a doozy. LOL.



[Note: Marc Jackson was a center who played 99 games in Minnesota. He never started a game. He averaged 5.3 ppg and 3.1 reb on 42.6% fg. Hmmmm... who's next... Mark Madsen?]