Retro Player of the Year 2008-09 UPDATE — Lebron James

[Lebronnygoat]

POY.
1. Lebron- arguably best season ever, Kareem in contention. ATG maybe GOAT PM, GOAT playoff scoring, great rim-protection and man D. Might make your team way more likely to win at this point more than anyone ever.
2. Dwight Howard- Superb defense, good offense. 3 TS increase in playoffs.
3. Wade- Great PM and good scoring.
4. Kobe- Great finals. Good RS. Good pm and great scoring.
5. Dirk- Great scoring.

[Narigo]

1. LeBron James- One of the best seasons ever and had amazing postseason to boot. A Clear number 1.

2. Dwayne Wade- Probably his peak season. Contention with Kobe for this spot but I think he had a better regular season with a worst supporting cast

3. Kobe Bryant - Proved he can win without Shaq which was the narrative at the time

4. Chris Paul- Clear number 4. Postseason wasn't as good as last season.

5. Dwight Howard- Best defensive player this season and led team to the finals

[AEnigma]

Going to go ahead and open the next thread. People can post ballots so long as I have not tallied, but for the sake of discussion will move ahead because I might not get around to an official tally in the next few hours.

[Paulluxx9000]

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
Wade
CP3
And now we have the full thing.

Spoiler:

Finally the kid from Akron. Chasing Jordan, but in Magic’s mold:

Over the previous years the offense goes from Kareem-centric to Magic-centric. A lot of people lament Magic not being given the reigns earlier but it’s not so easy. Prime Kareem completely invalidates high-level defense if you use him right.(and who was using him correctly…) Even now he is a huge headache for opposing teams but, you know who also invalidates high-level defense entirely? Magic.
It’s easy to just look at the assists but if you go by the assists Isiah isn’t that far off. Here’s what Magic has that Isiah doesn’t. You have 5 guys there to make sure Magic or one of his teammates doesn’t score. But if there’s just a sliver of daylight. Just a few guys ever so slightly overextended…Magic might just render all 5 of those defenders moot in a flash. He has unbelievable ball control, he’s big and powerful at the basket, he uses his eyes better than anyone, and has a cannon for an arm. He can defeat your defense basically himself. He might not end the possession with a tough contested fadeaway, but he’ll do it his way. And there’s only one other guy you could ever say that about. And he isn’t going to be on anyone’s ballot until 2004.(unless you’re really into him and are a “High school LeBron was the level of an NBA All-Star” (real people that exist))
Finally, his brain. His advanced stats are ridiculous But that doesn’t tell you how someone makes his teammates better. Magic’s impact is ridiculous. Magic is the smartest player on the court every time he steps on it(yes, smarter than Bird). He knows where he needs to go and where you need to go and he’ll make sure you and him both go where you need to go at the time and place you both need to be there. And he does that better than anyone else and everyone who comes after, probably even including that 2004 guy(who’s better at a couple other things).
Is his team good? Yes. Is Kareem amazing? Definitely. But we seem him still doing all this with explicitly fine and not Kareem teammates when he crosses 30

Great stats. Great tape. Undeniable impact. You play to win and no one ever makes you win like him (Russell yes). But what’s been lost to time is the pressure. Not from just being so incredibly good, but because there was a type of good many wanted him to be:
https://youtu.be/mZE4NuH_uuA?t=271
One of the things that always rubbed me wrong is how people covered and still cover Lebron pre-miami. I think it's obvious for anyone who paid attention he was already one of the smartest players ever.
Yet many say things like "he didn't know how to win" (Lebron himself caved in to this one unfortunately), "he didn't know how to close", "he wasn't a game manager yet", while lambsting his almost always correct decision-making as soft, weak, or not "alpha"
And then I came across this; one of the most absurd collection of interview questions in history aimed at any basketball player from one of the most respected and, at least by reputation, class personified, Bob Costas.
We talk about what Russell and Kareem faced, but I don't know I've seen this seriously discussed with Lebron: How much did race factor into how Lebron was and still is covered. Times 100 when we speak of the part of his career before his first ring.
Many hate how he took control of his own future. How he took control of his teams. How he took control of offensive possessions. How he’s trying to take control of endless ridiculous narratives written up exclusively for him and him alone. I applaud it. Invalidating opponent defense. Controlling opponent offense. That’s on film. But entering the most negative environment almost any player has ever entered with teammates and anchors alike chomping at Hummers and Tatoos to see him fail; and forcing all of them to shut up? Chosen one indeed.
20 years old and he already has Cleveland winning despite it all. And he’s just getting started. 20 years later and he’s not even finished.[/quote]
The playmaking was mostly there already but now the other shoe drops. Ontop of making like Magic, he’s defending like Pippen even with a shaky jumper that type of combination that can make you the best player in the league. You need to think of him inside. He’s not AK47 but he will spend stretches of games on the backline and makes would be dunkers and slashers second-guess themselves and try a different path. He’s an active and disciplined man defender running 1 through 4 and occasionally even 5s. He’s a bit gambly to start the year but as the season progresses you see all the components for the two way monster he’s about to become. Poised but powerful. Disciplined but dynamic His shooting isn’t there for the final hurdle but he finds other ways to keep his team in. Tripled and quadrupled and still more often than not he finds the right man at the right spot at breakneck speed. Add in the fear he’s putting in manu and parker at his basket and you get a massively overmatched cleveland team lottery-level cast staying right there every game. They probably win a couple if Mike Brown isn’t trying to use Lebron like Jordan. Waiting and cutting in the corner where the Spurs can afford to leave one man instead of three or four while Gibson brings it up with his broken foot again and again for dinosaur offense. Or putting Gibson on Parker or tanking their offense with Snow when they have someone who can handle him nearly on his lonesome. It wasn’t an all powerful performance and there are plenty of things to work on. But for anyone who really watched there was lots to praise. And don’t get me started how he got there 27 straight vs Detroit. But that’s not the point. The Cavs got where they got on great defense and under the noses of alot of people who make it all about deflections and steals. A really great attacker became a really great defender.
…
The lazy will look at his scoring and say he was bad against Boston. They’ll ignore injuries and hapless support (not one win when he didn’t grace the court) and say he didn’t win enough. But those watching really watching will see a forward making chances out of nothing in bunches and patrolling his basket from the rim and from the key and from the paint and at the elbow making everyone from 1 to 5 on Boston think a little different about what they were going to do in possession after possession after possession. And then in the last 3 games the offense comes alive. Lebron becomes Atlas and if not for Paul pierce becoming saiyan and one of the best defenses in modernity Lebron might have went and won a title then and there with little more than a few defenders he helped make look much better than they really were. He was an all-time great already but now you see the outline of something even better, much better. With respect to Kobe and KG and the many fine players who shared the league it’s just not close. He scores with anyone and others better like anyone and can defend like anyone who isn’t pushing 7 feet inside out and in between. Just the best.

No player ever is flawless, but this is as close as anyone’s gotten to having no weaknesses. Defending inside, defending outside, helping, closing out shooters, guarding 1-4 and on occasion even 5’s, screen navigation, sealing off, Lebron’s the full package defensively. As full a package any perimeter engine gets. And on offense, the only question mark is a jump-shot, a question he answers and then some in the midst of the most impressive playoff performance of any non-giant ever. It’s not enough against the red-hot Magic and Dwight but he was incredible asked to produce more than anyone ever and almost pulling it off.
His game will improve in certain ways but this is Lebron unleashed. This is when he becomes undeniably better than Jordan. Prophecy fulfilled.
Kobe wins

Spoiler:

Kobe’s a superstar though he doesn’t play as super as last time. He can roam, he can drive, he can dunk (not like MJ). He doesn’t have the size to get by or through traffic like a Lebron, or even just get by like Jordan. But he’s smart, precise with his moves, and is a truly versatile piece able to do everything well and, if he has to face the traffic, he can shoot over it as well as nearly anyone. He would have been incredible with illegal defense, but he’s good enough now. There is no three-peat without Mamba.
He was well and truly poor in a finals facing Boston and Garnett’s awesome defense but it’s silly to me to let one series make three other series and a regular-season meaningless. Kobe was phenomenal for three rounds including the total domination of Duncan and his Spurs. He was great in a regular season full of turnover. Kobe is not unstoppable like Boston showed in this finals and another but he’s great all the same.

He was excellent in these finals and was great in the playoffs as a whole. It’s a shame a kid from Akron turned into a monster robbing him the opportunity to be the best.
Dwight arrives. Big, fast, and tall; and can jump like hell. Dwight’s game is not complex. He doesn’t have a litany of post-moves or a bag or a great jumpshot. But it’s effective. Two bigs have to watch him at your basket. Which means if you surround him with shooters and those shooters get hot, even the best ever can be beat. On the other end you’re going to have a hard time getting to his basket. Unless you’re vintage Lebron the mobile 7-footer with great leap and wingspan is going to make you work. It’s a formula to win and the Magic made it work. He has limits which great teams can lay bare, but most everyone does. This is still the league’s best giant and he was better than he’s remembered now.
Wade is peaking. In 2006 he channeled Jordan for a finals. In 2009 he learned how to do it for a season. Unfortunately he has very little to help him. That’ll change soon but for now he’s stuck where KG was. Dragging teams to respectability.
Slight down year for the point-god. They happen.

Spoiler:

Chris Paul comes good. He doesn’t push and press a defense’s buttons like Nash and he’s not yet the small quarterback proving brain can beat brawn on defense. But he score efficiently from anywhere from the basket to the top of the key and he can spot and hit gaps with accuracy and precision near unmatched. He gets slower but he also gets smarter. Injury prone but an incredible talent already puting on shows.

[ceoofkobefans]

Voting post

POY

1. (Unfortunately) LeBron James

Not much to say that hasn’t alr been said. Goat tier peak, on the shortlist of best seasons in nba history easy number 1 choice as tempting as it is to put Kobe at 1 for how amazing he was this year

2. Kobe Bryant

Another fairly easy placement. Coasts at the end of the RS but is still a t3 guy and had an all time playoff run that would’ve been easily enough to be the best player in the playoffs if it wasn’t for that guy in Cleveland, that he caps off with one of the greatest finals in nba history averaging 32/7/6 against the best defense in the league. This is arguably his best season it’s a shame it overlaps with arguably Lebrons peak

3. Dwyane Wade

Yet another all time great player in arguably his best season. Wade was arguably better than Kobe in the RS and dragged an offensively inept Miami team to the playoffs where they lost in 7 to Atlanta. Seeing a lot of people putting Howard over wade bc the Magic made the finals and I don’t think that’s fair to Wade at all he was much better in the RS and Dwight wasn’t good enough in the PO (not was wade bad enough in the PO, he’s playing at a similar level to the RS) to close that gap. I think 09 wade is in the argument for the 15 greatest peaks in nba history and I don’t think Dwight is very close to that level although he’s great in his own right.

4. Dwight Howard

Best defender in the league, high quality scorer and elite rebounder that was the driving force of a top 5 team in the league and the best player on a finals team, and while he didn’t outplay LeBron, he did beat him in the PO. The Magic were a great team that was ahead of their time and gets undersold but Dwight was legitimately great this year

5. Chris Paul

Was really tempted to put Melo here but in the RS CP3 is more or less the same player he was in 08 and he did have a bad PO series against the nuggets but I think the RS performance is enough for him to get the 5th spot

HMs: Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Garnett

OPOY

1. LeBron James/Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
HMs: Chris Paul, Dirk Nowitzki

DPOY

1. Dwight Howard
2. LeBron James
3. Kevin Garnett
HMs: Shane Battier, Tim Duncan

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 12 approved voters: Djoker, AEnigma, capfan33, homecourtloss, ILikeShaiGuys, CEOofkobefans, Paulluxx, OhayoKD, Lebronnygoat, Narigo, One_and_Done, and trelos. DJoker, AEnigma, LikeShaiGuys, OhayoKD, and trelos voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year, and CEOofkobefans voted for Defensive Player of the Year (invalid OPoY vote). Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

2008-09 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Lebron James (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Lebron James    5   0   0    25    1.000
2. Kobe Bryant   0   4   0   12    0.480
3. Dwyane Wade   0   0   4    4    0.160
4. Chris Paul    0   1   0    3    0.120
5. Brandon Roy    0   0   1    1    0.040

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Dwight Howard (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Dwight Howard  6   0   0    30    1.000
2. Lebron James   0   5   0    15    0.500
3. Kevin Garnett   0   1   3    6    0.200
4. Tim Duncan   0   0   2    2    0.067
5. Lamar Odom   0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Lebron James (Unanimous) (2)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Lebron James  12  0  0  0  0    120   1.000
2. Kobe Bryant  0  8  1  2  1   68   0.567
3. Dwyane Wade  0  2  5  5  0   54   0.608
4. Dwight Howard 0  2  5  3  2   50   0.433
5. Chris Paul   0  0  1  2  3   14   0.117
6. Dirk Nowitzki   0  0  0  0  5   5   0.042
7. Chauncey Billups   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.008

In the prior project, there were 27 votes, with no overlap. These are the aggregated results of the two projects across 39 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Lebron James  36  3  0  0  0    381   0.977
2. Kobe Bryant  3  25  8  2  1   252   0.646
3. Dwyane Wade  0  8  11  18  1   166   0.426
4. Dwight Howard 0  2  18  12  6   146   0.374
5. Chris Paul   0  1  1  7  17   50   0.128
6. Dirk Nowitzki   0  0  0  0  11   11   0.028
7. Tim Duncan   0  0  1  0  0   5   0.013
8. Chauncey Billups   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.005
9. Carmelo Anthony  0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003

2010 thread is open.

[jiffzzz]

2009 CP3 write up cause why not
Underrated Szns Part 2 (IA/75)
2009 Chris Paul
24.3 PPG
11 APG
59.9 TS% (+5.5 rTS)

**Net Impact**
Hornets Net Rating with CP3 On: +6.6
(59 Win Pace)
Hornets Net Rating with CP3 Off: -10.8
(Adjusts to a 14 Win Pace)
+17.4 Net Swing

**On/Off Offensive Rating**
Hornets oRTG with CP3 on: 122.0 oRTG
(Best in the league with a +13.7 rORTG)
Hornets oRTG with CP3 off: 102.8
(Becomes the 29th worst Offense in the league with a -5.5 rORTG)
+19.2 Offensive Net Swing

**Defensive Impact**
Hornets Defense with CP3 on: 104.0
(Tied with Rockets for 4th best defense itl with a -4.3 rDRTG)
Hornets Defense with CP3 off: 113.6
(Tied for 29th worst defense itl with a +5.3 rDRTG)
-9.6 Defensive Net swing
(Sadly dropped a bit in the PS)
Vs Denver in the playoffs
16 PPG
10 APG
50% TS (-4.4 rTS)

**Conclusion**
**Good Scoring**
**ATG Playmaking**
**ATG Offense**
**Goat Level Guard Defense**
**Shaky playoff translation**