parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
1. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Finals MVP. Kobe kind of cruised through the RS and the first round against OKC before totally stepping up in the final three rounds of the PS and led the Lakers to another title. Kobe offered some good and very resilient scoring with solid playmaking and defense. Averaged 27.0/5.4/5.0 on +0.2 rTS in the RS then 29.2/6.0/5.5 on +3.3 rTS in the PS.
2. Dwyane Wade - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Wade had a dominant PS showing against the Celtics, dominating a really good playoff defense. Quite simply, he looks like he has a case as the best player in the NBA and I don't have an issue with someone putting him at #1. Averaged 26.6/4.8/6.5 on +1.9 rTS in the RS then 33.2/5.6/6.8 on +11.6 rTS in the PS.
3. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Lebron had another fantastic floor-raising RS just a bit behind 2009 and going into the 2nd round of the playoffs, he looked like a definite frontrunner. He would really have to underperform badly to lose it from here on out... and he proceeded to do just that playing absolutely horribly down the stretch of the Celtics series while losing three consecutive games. It was so bad that commentators were talking about how passive, scared, distracted etc. Lebron looked and rumours started swirling as to why. His box score averages looked decent because of Game 1 and Game 3 but it really was a terrible performance. His averages in the last three games were 21.3/11.3/8.3 on -6.6 rTS with 6.3 topg. Those who weren't watching the series or just look at the total numbers can put Lebron #1 but I can't. Not when his subpar play heavily contributed to his team losing in the PS and as a series favorite no less. Averaged 29.7/7.3/8.6 on +6.1 rTS in the RS then 29.1/9.3/7.6 on +7.7 rTS in the PS.
4. Dwight Howard - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Led the Magic to the best SRS in the league and then into the ECF where they lost to the Celtics. Dwight was again an all-star caliber big on offense while being the league's best defender. He could be argued higher on the list but I don't think his PS stands out in any major way. Averaged 18.3/13.2/1.8 on +8.7 rTS in the RS then 18.1/11.4/1.4 on +7.4 rTS in the PS.
5. Steve Nash - 2nd Team All-NBA. Led the #1 offense in Phoenix yet again with a completely different group of guys than from 2005-2007 and with a different coach. Just a terrific floor general whose game definitely translates into the PS. Averaged 16.5/3.3/11.0 on +7.2 rTS in the RS then 17.8/3.3/10.1 on +10.4 rTS in the PS.
OPOY
1. Kobe Bryant - Amazing scorer and solid playmaker.
2. Dwyane Wade - Amazing scoring efficiency in the PS. Good playmaker.
3. Lebron James - Great scorer and playmaker. Prone to meltdowns as seen vs. the Celtics.
DPOY
1. Dwight Howard - DPOY. Most impactful defender in the league at this point.
2. Kevin Garnett - Though older, still so good at covering ground on defense. Celtics' defense went up a notch in the PS and KG was a big part of it.
3. Tim Duncan - Still anchors a good -3.1 rDRtg defense. Great paint protector.
Wait how is nash not even top opoy on your list here yet hes top 5 overall? His ranking top 5 overall has to be on the back of his very impactful offense, right? Hes hardly a 2 way guy lol
inconvenient truth...we're too good! -Phil Blackson
Nash was pretty comfortably the best offensive player in the NBA this year.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Another thing that’s being over looked is that Kobe had to have his knee drained I wanna say it was at the end of the thunder series or after it he was playing injured during that series and dealt with injuries the entire playoffs
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Another thing that’s being over looked is that Kobe had to have his knee drained I wanna say it was at the end of the thunder series or after it he was playing injured during that series and dealt with injuries the entire playoffs
lessthanjake wrote:One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
LeBron’s sin in that series wasn't poor shooting, it was the turnovers. He actually had more turnovers than made fgs in games 4-6. But Kobe was operating with a much higher margin for error in his series against Boston.
His 3 worst shooting games (games 2, 3 & 7) LA went 2-1. The two wins...a 10-29, 4ast Game 2 and a 6-24, 2ast Game 7. How did LA manage to win these games with Bryant playing so meekly offensively? Because they held Boston to 101.6 ortg in Game 2 and 94.6 ortg in game 7. Both well below Bostons 107.7 regular season mark. As a matter of fact, while Boston had their best offensive series of the playoffs against CLE (108.4) they had their worst against LA (101.2).
Again the convo about LeBron’s offense against Boston compared to Kobe misses the point. Cleveland lost because they couldn't stop Boston, LA won because they could.
And the backdoor heilo mention means nothing when one team has Pau Gasol & Lamar Odom as their 2nd and 3rd options and the other had Mo Williams & a 37yr old Shaq as theirs. Obviously, Kobe shooting terribly is gonna be less damaging with his roster in a series where LA's defense has Boston completely bottled up.
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. In other words in a non shooting Rondo like role Mo Williams would be better than LeBron.
lessthanjake wrote: Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
idk, I think it's easy to read a lot of things into 3 games. I think some people may be whitewashing it as you claim but at the same time using things like ORtg to compare them to a full season of a team(2011 Cavs) when those 3 games were played against a great defense is borderline insane(though I'm not claiming you did that). What really sunk the Cavs in those games was having no answer for Rondo(he was the Celtics best player in this series and also racked up a lot of steals) and turnovers. Despite playing at a slow pace the Cavs still managed to avg 20.3 turnovers in the final 3 games which is a huge number and obviously LeBron is guilty for a lot of those but 27 in game 6 is one of the highest numbers you'll see in an NBA game. So that to me is where the series was lost and why things like ORtg were so bad. It wasn't just LeBron's shooting(also factoring in his elbow) since he also held Pierce to maybe the worst series of his prime. It was mainly Rondo and the turnovers that did us in. Having said that, LeBron wasn't great and deserves criticism but I'm not sure it was winnable if LeBron just shoots better. Rondo was the x factor for that series.
1 - Lebron James 2 - Dwyane Wade 3 - Steve Nash 4 - Kobe Bryant 5 - Tim Duncan
Feel people voting against Lebron are doing it because of feelings? Lebron's stats are better and he's a alot better on defense and he's a alot better at passing but Kobe is better because we're going to look at a few games. Not a series but a few games? Say i didn't watch enough or whatever and I guess at the time people were trying to say Kobe was the Best guy and he knew how to get it done but Lebron has 7 assists vs 4 and 3 point higher true shooting on 2 less points and Kobe looks awful in game 7 and I remember there was lots of talk about Pau Gasol being the finals MVP so I can't really buy all that. Lebron is the guy who sees a team go from 60 to 20 and people who went into film show his assists underselling him and him being great at defense. Like okay you can say you saw this stuff live and this means you know more but like that doesn't really prove anything? It's not like this is the 90s anyway. If I've watched this then I feel like pretty much everyone here has lol. Like people just make up stuff for Kobe I guess. Duncan had more MVPs and championship carry jobs but Kobe peaked higher. Kobe had Phil Jackson and Shaq and Pau Gasol but Duncan had better coaching and teams? Kobe goes out in the first round but okay he's the best player because stats. Lebron has better stats but Kobe's better because his team wins. I feel like people just will say whatever for Kobe because the whole closest to MJ thing and like I guess we saw earlier people also get crazy defensive about MJ too.
Like come on guys. Lebron is better. It's okay to admit that lol. Kobe's mamba is cool but no one here really is explaining to me what Kobe is doing other than stats that we should treat him like he's Bill Russell.
Wade actually has way better stats than Lebron facing Boston and he's better than Kobe in the regular season.
Nash also has better stats. Feel like he just had less help and winning 4 games in a row vs Duncan is awesome.
Even people voting for him say Kobe had a down RS but if you win you win I guess. I'll be honest the whole wow Kobe had a 55 win team thing probably just moved me up on him. There's got to be some balance between saying he's Lebron James and saying he's just a passenger who got carried by Pau. Lakers going pretty good before Pau even got there makes me feel Kobe has to get some credit for winning even if his stats kind of sucked in the finals.
Duncan beats Dirk and is one of the best defenders and scores almost 20. There's KG but is he even their best player at 15/2/7?
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Can we please stop this big eyetest swinging contest?
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Game score actually favors players who shoot lots on meh efficiency and are meh on defense - like Kobe. And still Kobe's game score over 3 of 4 series was worse than Lebron's vs Boston (17.4 vs 22.0) and barely better than LeBrons 3 breathtakingly bad games (15.0)
Is Kobe being trash for almost the entire 6-game first round better than Lebron being trash on only one half of the court for 3 games (=1.5 games) against Boston? Even if someone agreed to that, how does such a minuscule, hiiighly debatable advantage make up for the undebatably gigantic advantage Lebron had when healthy in the RS? The gap in 2010 RS VORP between Lebron and Kobe was much bigger than Kobe's gap to 2010 Celine Dion.
And nobody cares what the eye test of some anonymous guy on the internet says.
lessthanjake wrote: Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
idk, I think it's easy to read a lot of things into 3 games. I think some people may be whitewashing it as you claim but at the same time using things like ORtg to compare them to a full season of a team(2011 Cavs) when those 3 games were played against a great defense is borderline insane(though I'm not claiming you did that).
To be clear, the rORTG I referred to for the games against the Celtics was relative to the Celtics defense, not relative to the league as a whole. So it is accounting for the Celtics being a great defense. If I’d calculated rORTG compared to league average it would’ve been more like -16 or so.
What really sunk the Cavs in those games was having no answer for Rondo(he was the Celtics best player in this series and also racked up a lot of steals) and turnovers. Despite playing at a slow pace the Cavs still managed to avg 20.3 turnovers in the final 3 games which is a huge number and obviously LeBron is guilty for a lot of those but 27 in game 6 is one of the highest numbers you'll see in an NBA game. So that to me is where the series was lost and why things like ORtg were so bad. It wasn't just LeBron's shooting(also factoring in his elbow) since he also held Pierce to maybe the worst series of his prime. It was mainly Rondo and the turnovers that did us in. Having said that, LeBron wasn't great and deserves criticism but I'm not sure it was winnable if LeBron just shoots better. Rondo was the x factor for that series.
I think there’s a chance it was winnable if LeBron simply shot better, given that Games 4 & 6 were at least sort of close, but I agree that the turnovers were massively important. But, as you note, LeBron was guilty for a lot of them, and I wouldn’t be talking about those games in the same way without him having turned the ball over so much. That was a big part of the equation here.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Another thing that’s being over looked is that Kobe had to have his knee drained I wanna say it was at the end of the thunder series or after it he was playing injured during that series and dealt with injuries the entire playoffs
That's really not relevant. Whether a player was bad due to injury or other reasons, all that matters is they played worse.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
parapooper wrote:LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average) 15.0 vs 13.4
LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round 15.0 vs 12.9
LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round: 29.5 vs 12.9 22.0 vs 21.9 ---- 28.8 ---- 18.7 25.4 vs 20.4 avg.
Lebron vs Kobe BPM: RS: 11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th) top10ish vs top700ish? all time PS: 11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)
similar story in other stats
So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option
Game Score is a very rough measure—it’s basically just PER at a game level. Looking at Game Score is really not a replacement for actually watching the games. Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was definitely not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. Same with Kobe’s worst three games against the Celtics (though Kobe’s Game 7 was definitely on par in terms of awfulness IMO).
One important thing to think about in this regard is just how awful the Cavaliers’ offense was in those three games. Their rORTG was worse than -12 in those games (and was better in the minutes with LeBron off than when LeBron was on). That is horrible. And it’s really not enough to just say LeBron’s teammates were bad. Even the 2011 Cavaliers—without LeBron and like half their 2010 rotation, and with tons of injuries throughout the year—had a -5.1 rORTG. We are talking about a level of awful offense that is genuinely rare. And when that happens while the team’s best player and offensive engine *also* has bad individual stats, it’s clear that it was an awful performance by that player. Not that anyone really needs any of this evidence if they actually watched this series—something that I have a difficult time believing most people trying to whitewash this actually did. I think it’s very difficult to look at Kobe having a bad shooting night and think it was as bad as LeBron being so awful that it just broke his team’s offense. Maybe some of that is that Kobe’s teammates were better (which I do think they were), but a lot of it really is that LeBron was bad in a way that was more negatively impactful than Kobe. Some of that is likely that the triangle is more team-focused and therefore more able to function okay while the team’s biggest scorer is not doing well. Maybe if the offense had been more centered around Kobe, he would’ve torpedoed his team in those games as much as LeBron did. It’s possible! But he didn’t. Perhaps aside from Game 7 of the Finals, there’s just no parallel between the effect of Kobe’s worst few games of the Celtics series and the absolute offensive contagion that LeBron’s collapse had on his team. And, again, I really think anyone disputing this did not watch these games.
Game score actually favors players who shoot lots on meh efficiency and are meh on defense - like Kobe. And still Kobe's game score over 3 of 4 series was worse than Lebron's vs Boston (17.4 vs 22.0) and barely better than LeBrons 3 breathtakingly bad games (15.0)
You don’t have any significant basis for saying that Game Score “favors players who shoot lots on meh efficiency.” And I could also easily say that PER/Game-Score undersells how bad turning the ball over a lot is (which I think is actually almost certainly true since it doesn’t attempt to account for its effect on the other end of the court). And, in any event, Game Score is basically just PER, which just isn’t a great stat in general. It’s not very persuasive, and hand-waving about what direction you think it probably is wrong in is silly. If we don’t think it’s a good stat, then it’s just not all that useful. And I think we both know what the consensus was about this amongst people who actually watched the games at the time. Appealing to Game Score isn’t going to change or override that.
Is Kobe being trash for almost the entire 6-game first round better than Lebron being trash on only one half of the court for 3 games (=1.5 games) against Boston? Even if someone agreed to that, how does such a minuscule, hiiighly debatable advantage make up for the undebatably gigantic advantage Lebron had when healthy in the RS? The gap in 2010 RS VORP between Lebron and Kobe was much bigger than Kobe's gap to 2010 Celine Dion.
And nobody cares what the eye test of some anonymous guy on the internet says.
Again, Kobe was not good in the first round, but he was not as bad as LeBron was in the last three games against the Celtics. You’re also just ignoring the fact that Kobe actually played really well in the playoffs against two good teams. LeBron did not have a good series against any good team. That matters a lot! Even if you decide to think that Kobe only had the opportunity to do so because he had a better team, that hypothetical masks the actual reality that Kobe did that and LeBron didn’t. This is a big deal for POY purposes.
And yeah, I agree LeBron was notably better than Kobe in the regular season. That’s a significant factor here and the only reason there’s even a discussion worth having here. But ultimately Kobe led his team to the title and LeBron went out ignominiously in the second round. That’s a really significant factor of POY purposes! I think we all agree that LeBron was a better player at this point, but POY for most people isn’t just “Who was the best player in a vacuum?” Achievements that year matter, and obviously Kobe blows LeBron out of the water there.
As for the “eye test of some anonymous guy on the internet,” the issue you should confront here is that I’m not on an island at all, and in fact this was the widespread consensus about LeBron’s performance at the time. It’s the people trying to whitewash it that are anonymous guys on the internet going out on a limb.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
lessthanjake wrote: I think there’s a chance it was winnable if LeBron simply shot better, given that Games 4 & 6 were at least sort of close, but I agree that the turnovers were massively important. But, as you note, LeBron was guilty for a lot of them, and I wouldn’t be talking about those games in the same way without him having turned the ball over so much. That was a big part of the equation here.
Hypothetically speaking anything is possible. What I was attempting to add some context to was the idea that the Cavs lost because LeBron was so bad over the last 3 games. Yes, he didn't shoot well though I mean 19 reb in game 6 has to count for something and being part of why Pierce had a game score of 8 for the series also has to count for something. What I didn't see much mention of was how great Rondo was and the overall effect of turnovers on the Cavs losing/ORtg for the series. Which again LeBron gets some of the blame for but even without his 9 to's in game 6 they still had 18 as a team which is huge still. I'm just adding context for the sake of discussion, I'm not necessarily trying to sway your vote and if someone thinks Kobe deserves to be #1 that's fine since he did lead his team to the title.
Lebron KD Kobe Nash Dwight Disappointing end but all-together a spectacular i season
Spoiler:
Finally the kid from Akron. Chasing Jordan, but in Magic’s mold:
Over the previous years the offense goes from Kareem-centric to Magic-centric. A lot of people lament Magic not being given the reigns earlier but it’s not so easy. Prime Kareem completely invalidates high-level defense if you use him right.(and who was using him correctly…) Even now he is a huge headache for opposing teams but, you know who also invalidates high-level defense entirely? Magic. It’s easy to just look at the assists but if you go by the assists Isiah isn’t that far off. Here’s what Magic has that Isiah doesn’t. You have 5 guys there to make sure Magic or one of his teammates doesn’t score. But if there’s just a sliver of daylight. Just a few guys ever so slightly overextended…Magic might just render all 5 of those defenders moot in a flash. He has unbelievable ball control, he’s big and powerful at the basket, he uses his eyes better than anyone, and has a cannon for an arm. He can defeat your defense basically himself. He might not end the possession with a tough contested fadeaway, but he’ll do it his way. And there’s only one other guy you could ever say that about. And he isn’t going to be on anyone’s ballot until 2004.(unless you’re really into him and are a “High school LeBron was the level of an NBA All-Star” (real people that exist)) Finally, his brain. His advanced stats are ridiculous But that doesn’t tell you how someone makes his teammates better. Magic’s impact is ridiculous. Magic is the smartest player on the court every time he steps on it(yes, smarter than Bird). He knows where he needs to go and where you need to go and he’ll make sure you and him both go where you need to go at the time and place you both need to be there. And he does that better than anyone else and everyone who comes after, probably even including that 2004 guy(who’s better at a couple other things). Is his team good? Yes. Is Kareem amazing? Definitely. But we seem him still doing all this with explicitly fine and not Kareem teammates when he crosses 30
Great stats. Great tape. Undeniable impact. You play to win and no one ever makes you win like him (Russell yes). But what’s been lost to time is the pressure. Not from just being so incredibly good, but because there was a type of good many wanted him to be: https://youtu.be/mZE4NuH_uuA?t=271 One of the things that always rubbed me wrong is how people covered and still cover Lebron pre-miami. I think it's obvious for anyone who paid attention he was already one of the smartest players ever. Yet many say things like "he didn't know how to win" (Lebron himself caved in to this one unfortunately), "he didn't know how to close", "he wasn't a game manager yet", while lambsting his almost always correct decision-making as soft, weak, or not "alpha" And then I came across this; one of the most absurd collection of interview questions in history aimed at any basketball player from one of the most respected and, at least by reputation, class personified, Bob Costas. We talk about what Russell and Kareem faced, but I don't know I've seen this seriously discussed with Lebron: How much did race factor into how Lebron was and still is covered. Times 100 when we speak of the part of his career before his first ring. Many hate how he took control of his own future. How he took control of his teams. How he took control of offensive possessions. How he’s trying to take control of endless ridiculous narratives written up exclusively for him and him alone. I applaud it. Invalidating opponent defense. Controlling opponent offense. That’s on film. But entering the most negative environment almost any player has ever entered with teammates and anchors alike chomping at Hummers and Tatoos to see him fail; and forcing all of them to shut up? Chosen one indeed. 20 years old and he already has Cleveland winning despite it all. And he’s just getting started. 20 years later and he’s not even finished.[/quote] The playmaking was mostly there already but now the other shoe drops. Ontop of making like Magic, he’s defending like Pippen even with a shaky jumper that type of combination that can make you the best player in the league. You need to think of him inside. He’s not AK47 but he will spend stretches of games on the backline and makes would be dunkers and slashers second-guess themselves and try a different path. He’s an active and disciplined man defender running 1 through 4 and occasionally even 5s. He’s a bit gambly to start the year but as the season progresses you see all the components for the two way monster he’s about to become. Poised but powerful. Disciplined but dynamic His shooting isn’t there for the final hurdle but he finds other ways to keep his team in. Tripled and quadrupled and still more often than not he finds the right man at the right spot at breakneck speed. Add in the fear he’s putting in manu and parker at his basket and you get a massively overmatched cleveland team lottery-level cast staying right there every game. They probably win a couple if Mike Brown isn’t trying to use Lebron like Jordan. Waiting and cutting in the corner where the Spurs can afford to leave one man instead of three or four while Gibson brings it up with his broken foot again and again for dinosaur offense. Or putting Gibson on Parker or tanking their offense with Snow when they have someone who can handle him nearly on his lonesome. It wasn’t an all powerful performance and there are plenty of things to work on. But for anyone who really watched there was lots to praise. And don’t get me started how he got there 27 straight vs Detroit. But that’s not the point. The Cavs got where they got on great defense and under the noses of alot of people who make it all about deflections and steals. A really great attacker became a really great defender. … The lazy will look at his scoring and say he was bad against Boston. They’ll ignore injuries and hapless support (not one win when he didn’t grace the court) and say he didn’t win enough. But those watching really watching will see a forward making chances out of nothing in bunches and patrolling his basket from the rim and from the key and from the paint and at the elbow making everyone from 1 to 5 on Boston think a little different about what they were going to do in possession after possession after possession. And then in the last 3 games the offense comes alive. Lebron becomes Atlas and if not for Paul pierce becoming saiyan and one of the best defenses in modernity Lebron might have went and won a title then and there with little more than a few defenders he helped make look much better than they really were. He was an all-time great already but now you see the outline of something even better, much better. With respect to Kobe and KG and the many fine players who shared the league it’s just not close. He scores with anyone and others better like anyone and can defend like anyone who isn’t pushing 7 feet inside out and in between. Just the best.
No player ever is flawless, but this is as close as anyone’s gotten to having no weaknesses. Defending inside, defending outside, helping, closing out shooters, guarding 1-4 and on occasion even 5’s, screen navigation, sealing off, Lebron’s the full package defensively. As full a package any perimeter engine gets. And on offense, the only question mark is a jump-shot, a question he answers and then some in the midst of the most impressive playoff performance of any non-giant ever. It’s not enough against the red-hot Magic and Dwight but he was incredible asked to produce more than anyone ever and almost pulling it off. His game will improve in certain ways but this is Lebron unleashed. This is when he becomes undeniably better than Jordan. Prophecy fulfilled.[/spoiler] Kevin Durant’s here. 6’11 yet agile. Can handle the ball, and virtually unguardable 1 on 1. He can get beat mono v mono on the other side and forced into bad decisions on offense but he’s still impressive leading the Thunder to 50 wins and a solid effort against the champions. The Defense is not spectacular. His footwork and the slim part of slim reaper stops him from being a lockdown guy or an elite rebounder but he’s got the size to be bothersome and that wingspan can offer a little bit of protection inside. No way or shape about it though this man is a scorer. High efficiency instead of high volume. And he does a little bit of everything else. He’s got some growing to do but most of the good’s already there. Kobe wins
Spoiler:
Kobe’s a superstar though he doesn’t play as super as last time. He can roam, he can drive, he can dunk (not like MJ). He doesn’t have the size to get by or through traffic like a Lebron, or even just get by like Jordan. But he’s smart, precise with his moves, and is a truly versatile piece able to do everything well and, if he has to face the traffic, he can shoot over it as well as nearly anyone. He would have been incredible with illegal defense, but he’s good enough now. There is no three-peat without Mamba. He was well and truly poor in a finals facing Boston and Garnett’s awesome defense but it’s silly to me to let one series make three other series and a regular-season meaningless. Kobe was phenomenal for three rounds including the total domination of Duncan and his Spurs. He was great in a regular season full of turnover. Kobe is not unstoppable like Boston showed in this finals and another but he’s great all the same.
He was excellent in these finals and was great in the playoffs as a whole. It’s a shame a kid from Akron turned into a monster robbing him the opportunity to be the best. Nash bounces back.
Spoiler:
Nash, nash, nash, nash. What he lacks in Power he replaces with persistence. Constant pressure. He kept the ball closer to the hardwood better than anyone letting him negate defenders without a pass or a shot. And he passes like crazy. And he can shoot incredibly too. You put him on Stockton’s teams and they win a ring. Talking heads talk as if his offense was a regular season flash but he fried the Spurs offensively. It’s honestly part of why Nash has a claim to as the GOAT offensive player. He actually won MVP of the FIBA qualifier in 2004 carrying Canada to 5-4. They just didn’t have enough spots.
Incredible vs the Spurs. Not incredible enough vs the Lakers. Step back for Dwight
Spoiler:
Dwight arrives. Big, fast, and tall; and can jump like hell. Dwight’s game is not complex. He doesn’t have a litany of post-moves or a bag or a great jumpshot. But it’s effective. Two bigs have to watch him at your basket. Which means if you surround him with shooters and those shooters get hot, even the best ever can be beat. On the other end you’re going to have a hard time getting to his basket. Unless you’re vintage Lebron the mobile 7-footer with great leap and wingspan is going to make you work. It’s a formula to win and the Magic made it work. He has limits which great teams can lay bare, but most everyone does. This is still the league’s best giant and he was better than he’s remembered now
1. LeBron James- Clearly the best player in the regular season. But didn't perform well against Boston. Despite thi, I don't think anyone was near him impact wise accounting for both regular season and playoffs.
2. Dwayne Wade- Played almost as good as 2009. Had a better regular season then the players below my list. And played better against Boston than LeBron, Kobe and Howard.
3. Kobe Bryant- A.litle worse in 09 but perform well in the playoffs. Although tbh I thought Pau probably deserved the finals MVP award.
4. Dwight Howard- Arguably the best defender in the league this year and led team to conference finals against Boston. Good offensively but still limited there.
5. Steve Nash- Tempted to go with Kevin Durant as he imo had a better regular season with a weaker cast but Nash was much better in the playoffs.
Narigo's Fantasy Team
PG: Damian Lillard SG: Sidney Moncrief SF: PF: James Worthy C: Tim Duncan
Votes are tallied. I recorded 10 approved voters: Djoker, capfan33, homecourtloss, ILikeShaiGuys, OldSchoolNoBull, Paulluxx, OhayoKD, Narigo, One_and_Done, and trelos. DJoker, AEnigma, LikeShaiGuys, OhayoKD, and trelos voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.
2009-10 Results
(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Steve Nash (4)
Now, the 19 votes (with no overlap) in 2010 were contemporaneous, so I am not sure whether they should be grouped with this retroactive assessment. But for now, here are the aggregated results of the two projects across 29 total ballots:
