RCM88x wrote:donnieme wrote:They are basically a top 5 defense plus Kyrie. Do the math.
Kyrie has never really been an effective engine of an offense though. Great as a supporting player definitely, but not as the primary guy. I think that assuming this team will be above average offensively is a bit dangerous.
This is really an interesting narrative that's held steady seemingly from his cavs days. I think Kyrie has been a solid offensive engine at least since getting to Boston. His teams' offenses are always better with him on the court and he's shown that they can have an elite offense *and* defense with him on the court, which is a big separator in a league filled with guys who can get 21 ppg on good efficiency.
I know people don't want to give him any credit for Boston, but the fact is, he led them on a 16-game win streak his first year there and clearly won them a lot of close games in the clutch on their way to the No. 1 seed. They won an average of like 52 games when he was there. Tatum and Brown were good role players, but they were very far from being as good as him those years. Seeing the mavs team struggle to make entry passes to kyrie and get him the ball at the end of games, I actually think I maybe took Al Horford for granted. But he was still a worse player. This should have been a moment where people kind of ditched the, 'Can't lead his own team" narrative.
With the Nets Kyrie had a winning record when he played without KD or Harden i believe. Without Luka this year, he's got a 14-10 record. (I'm including the AD game because there was a game when Luka started but didn't finish the game). He's had a 21-14 record without Luka his whole mavs stint. Both of these translate to a 48 or 49-win pace for a season, which is easily good enough to comfortably make the playoffs in the East and good enough to be like 5th or 6th seed in the Western Conference. And mind you, many of these games have been played without Lively and even PJ Washington, and with a crazy amount of different lineups. He's actually been part of maybe the most lineup changes in the NBA the last 5 years, and I'd bet that he's been at least a moderate net positive in 95% of them.
So idk. I disagree with this whole premise. Before his true prime, he played with a bad coach on a team that was either deliberately tanking or just very poorly put together. With LeBron he was before his all-around prime, and that team was filled with a bunch of old shooters who were pretty worthless in a vacuum without LeBron. But even then, 2018-now Kyrie would probably have handled those situations a lot better than 2015-2017 Kyrie, because he's a much savvier defender and offensive player. Stronger too and i think in better shape.
But yeah. Kyrie has been a solid floor-raiser for the last 7 or so years. He scores 25-27 ppg per 36 with 5 assists and 5 rebounds and limited turnovers. Can play on or off ball equally well, and he lets his teammates do their thing and that prevents the offense from getting stagnant. Role players play confidently and are ready to make big plays down the stretch. Very scalable and can still have stretches where he'll average like 32/5/5 for like 10 games on elite efficiency while turning the ball over very little.
There are levels of "first options" in the league. Everyone is so high on DeAaron Fox, but he's made the playoffs once and his teams are much better than Kyrie's were when he got into the league. Like, Fox has sabonis and demar derozan and he was still not sniffing the playoffs this year. But somehow he's seen as some winner. There are other players in that lane too. Anthony Edwards has been playing with the literal DPOY and i think the 6MOY and Randle is still a top 40 or 50 player. Better than what Kyrie has had sans Luka and then especially without Lively and PJ Washington, etc. They beat the Warriors with backups the other day. They beat OKC without Luka *twice* this year. Edwards has had a healthier team than Kyrie for most of the year and he's still just struggling to stay in 7th seed and has essentially the same record.
People gotta put a little more respect on Kyrie's name. Only the truly special players are *always* good regardless of circumstance. He's not an MVP guy, but this is someone who produces at elite levels regardless of team offensive schemes, on ball or off ball, with two all-nba guys, one all-nba guy, not even starter level players, east coast, west coast. 14th season, 4 teams, countless coaches and teammates. Doesn't matter.
If healthy, him and AD i think could make the second round or even the third round of the playoffs. They can beat the warriors, the suns, the spurs,
