The Jokic vs. SGA "Debate" Settles LeBron vs. MJ

[lessthanjake]

Much of this doesn’t seem at all necessary to respond to since it is just the equivalent of a rhetorical dead end. But a few things:

For instance, I said earlier in response to you: “The Bulls did make better moves than the Cavaliers, but because Jordan came in older the Bulls were still not actually a better supporting cast than the Cavs were when these guys were both at the age LeBron was when he left Cleveland. So the Bulls making better moves ends up being mitigated a lot.”

This is hilariously baseless. Lebron left what had been a ~7-SRS team with him, and the Cavaliers immediately became the worst team in the league and basically stayed there for the next four years. But oh yeah, the 2-SRS 1989 Bulls were just in such rough shape with Pippen and Grant and a not yet washed Cartwright that they probably would have been by far the worst team in league history without Jordan.

FWIW, based on what I’m aware of, we have on-off data for 450 minutes without Jordan in 1988-1990, and the Bulls were outscored by 17.1 points per 48 minutes. It’s not a big sample size and a lot of it is playoffs (so, harder than average opponents). But the data we have definitely is consistent with those Bulls faring quite badly without Jordan.

What you say above is actually seemingly agreeing with that, but you’re just so hopelessly rabid when it comes to my posts (perhaps because of how badly our many prior discussions have gone for you)

You know what, that oblivious self-perception tracks with how every discussion ends with some variation of you accusing me of your own behaviour, calling me toxic,

Only one of us has gotten warned repeatedly by mods for their behavior towards the other, and it’s definitely not me. So I really don’t think I’ve been off-base.

and asserting that no real response is required because your posts will speak for themselves. And hey, on that last front at least you have managed to incidentally be correct: they speak, and continue to speak, to someone who has so little respect for the audience here that you apparently cannot even fathom your cheap snake oil pitches failing time and time and time and time again. Maybe they work on the “general public”, but even then, I would more readily attribute that to a lack of consumer protections.

Speaking of which, there you go again. Let’s dial it back a notch.

You also said this:

… which is so patently ahistorical that frankly I have no idea how anyone could treat it as a good faith comment even without knowing your history, and especially not when paired with the preceding “significant benefit” fatuity.

I think you’ll find that that’s a pretty uncontroversial statement that is consistent with most NBA fans’ understanding. I guess you’re free to disagree with it. As I’ve said in the past, the reality is that we don’t ever *really* know who exactly influenced what decisions and how much. Even the media stories we see are basically all just someone planting a self-serving story aimed at making them look as good as possible, so it should all be treated with skepticism. But, while I would not say I have full confidence on any conclusion on matters like this, I really don’t think the essence of what I said there would be seen as controversial to the general public. Perhaps you just run around accusing most basketball fans as talking in bad faith, though. It would be on brand.

Correct, I think most of the general public demonstrably talks in bad faith when it comes to Lebron, and I have said as much on many occasions.

Okay, so what I’d say to this is that if you think the general public as a whole talks in complete bad faith about something to the point where you get really upset at people for what are generally seen as uncontroversial statements, then you might want to take a step back and consider whether your own views are properly grounded or at least whether your own certainty about it is warranted. Sometimes the general public is wrong, but usually the person screaming into their pillow when hearing what most people deem to be banal truth is just misguided or at least way overconfident in the truth of their beliefs.

[AEnigma]

Much of this doesn’t seem at all necessary to respond to since it is just the equivalent of a rhetorical dead end. But a few things:

For instance, I said earlier in response to you: “The Bulls did make better moves than the Cavaliers, but because Jordan came in older the Bulls were still not actually a better supporting cast than the Cavs were when these guys were both at the age LeBron was when he left Cleveland. So the Bulls making better moves ends up being mitigated a lot.”

This is hilariously baseless. Lebron left what had been a ~7-SRS team with him, and the Cavaliers immediately became the worst team in the league and basically stayed there for the next four years. But oh yeah, the 2-SRS 1989 Bulls were just in such rough shape with Pippen and Grant and a not yet washed Cartwright that they probably would have been by far the worst team in league history without Jordan.

FWIW, based on what I’m aware of, we have on-off data for 450 minutes without Jordan in 1988-1990, and the Bulls were outscored by 17.1 points per 48 minutes. It’s not a big sample size and a lot of it is playoffs (so, harder than average opponents). But the data we have definitely is consistent with those Bulls faring quite badly without Jordan.

Ah, yes, that is why I have always suspected the 1997 Hawks would have been the league’s worst team without Christian Laettner.

What you say above is actually seemingly agreeing with that, but you’re just so hopelessly rabid when it comes to my posts (perhaps because of how badly our many prior discussions have gone for you)

You know what, that oblivious self-perception tracks with how every discussion ends with some variation of you accusing me of your own behaviour, calling me toxic,

Only one of us has gotten warned repeatedly by mods for their behavior towards the other, and it’s definitely not me. So I really don’t think I’ve been off-base.

and asserting that no real response is required because your posts will speak for themselves. And hey, on that last front at least you have managed to incidentally be correct: they speak, and continue to speak, to someone who has so little respect for the audience here that you apparently cannot even fathom your cheap snake oil pitches failing time and time and time and time again. Maybe they work on the “general public”, but even then, I would more readily attribute that to a lack of consumer protections.

Speaking of which, there you go again. Let’s dial it back a notch.

Why, are we already at the point where you are about to “scream into a pillow”? You know, the normal and healthy reaction when a pitch fails is to offer a better product, not delude yourself into thinking the pitch went great.

I think you’ll find that that’s a pretty uncontroversial statement that is consistent with most NBA fans’ understanding. I guess you’re free to disagree with it. As I’ve said in the past, the reality is that we don’t ever *really* know who exactly influenced what decisions and how much. Even the media stories we see are basically all just someone planting a self-serving story aimed at making them look as good as possible, so it should all be treated with skepticism. But, while I would not say I have full confidence on any conclusion on matters like this, I really don’t think the essence of what I said there would be seen as controversial to the general public. Perhaps you just run around accusing most basketball fans as talking in bad faith, though. It would be on brand.

Correct, I think most of the general public demonstrably talks in bad faith when it comes to Lebron, and I have said as much on many occasions.

Okay, so what I’d say to this is that if you think the general public as a whole talks in complete bad faith about something to the point where you get really upset at people for what are generally seen as uncontroversial statements, then you might want to take a step back and consider whether your own views are properly grounded or at least whether your own certainty about it is warranted. Sometimes the general public is wrong, but usually the person screaming into their pillow when hearing what most people deem to be banal truth is just misguided or at least way overconfident in the truth of their beliefs.

I am sure the person who rabidly insists that Steph is just as good as Lebron must be deeply invested in the wisdom of crowds.

As always, it is your specific perfidy which annoys me, and not whether a broader audience is capable of falling victim when it goes unchallenged. A falsity is still a falsity, even when you attempt to label it “uncontroversial” or “banal truth”.

[Special_Puppy]

Well I personally have Russell #1 and Jordan #2 all time and both are in my GOAT tier. Then Kareem and Lebron are in the next tier.

Which I can respect because of the purity in standards, but we both know that is not the consensus — nor is it what occupies most of your time here.

The consensus against Russell is that he played in a weaker era (not as many black players particularly in earlier years), had super stacked teams, that he wasn't a dominant two-way player (i.e. how can he be GOAT if WIlt was better) and that he wouldn't translate to the modern NBA. You can hold one or more of these views and thus have Jordan as the GOAT over Russell and Jordan as the GOAT over Lebron simply because he accomplished more. No major inconsistency there.

So basically using “context” to excuse the disparity in “accomplishments”. You (abstract “you”) cannot lower the “accomplishments” standard for Jordan relative to Russell but then balk when the same is done for Lebron using the same “context” of playing in a more developed era, having less of an advantage over opposing teams, and having to do more to elevate a team to a title.

Right.

The problem is that not a majority, but definitely a plurality, of NBA fans actually consider Lebron's era to be easier than past eras. For every "Lebron won less because he played with tougher circumstances", there is probably as many "Lebron won less despite playing with easier circumstances". The majority are largely accepting the context to excuse Jordan > Russell. And at the same time the majority are not only not accepting the context to excuse Lebron > Jordan, many are outright claiming the opposite.

I don't even understand the argument for Jordan playing in a tougher era. The NBA talent pool has significantly expanded since Jordan's era (partially thanks to Jordan's popularity!) while they've only added 1 team.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

okay so we're now on a rerun MJ guys just attack and bully the posters who say bad things about MJ episode. Like trying to blame a teenager for management was weird already but wait hey haha you got warnings and wow jokic hater is just seems sort of desperate lol

[Djoker]

Which I can respect because of the purity in standards, but we both know that is not the consensus — nor is it what occupies most of your time here.


So basically using “context” to excuse the disparity in “accomplishments”. You (abstract “you”) cannot lower the “accomplishments” standard for Jordan relative to Russell but then balk when the same is done for Lebron using the same “context” of playing in a more developed era, having less of an advantage over opposing teams, and having to do more to elevate a team to a title.

Right.

The problem is that not a majority, but definitely a plurality, of NBA fans actually consider Lebron's era to be easier than past eras. For every "Lebron won less because he played with tougher circumstances", there is probably as many "Lebron won less despite playing with easier circumstances". The majority are largely accepting the context to excuse Jordan > Russell. And at the same time the majority are not only not accepting the context to excuse Lebron > Jordan, many are outright claiming the opposite.

I don't even understand the argument for Jordan playing in a tougher era. The NBA talent pool has significantly expanded since Jordan's era (partially thanks to Jordan's popularity!) while they've only added 1 team.

People who claim Jordan's era is tougher point mostly to the less-offensive friendly rules and physicality.

Me personally, I don't like to get involved in era arguments at all. It's a rabbit hole with little to nothing to hold on to. I judge players strictly on how good they are relative to their era.

[Verticality]

okay so we're now on a rerun MJ guys just attack and bully the posters who say bad things about MJ episode. Like trying to blame a teenager for management was weird already but wait hey haha you got warnings and wow jokic hater is just seems sort of desperate lol

This thread has just been silliiness. Why is a new Most valuable player and a three time most valuable player used as steps for one player about to retire and one player long retired? Why is a young man making first team all-nba's and MVP and Finals blamed for his front office?

Ridiculous thread.

[KembaWalker]

LeBron fans be like “lol dindu nuffin till Pippen” and high five each other and then write a 5000 word essay about how LeBron had no options other than teaming up with prime Wade/prime Bosh prime Kyrie/prime Love prime AD/prime Luka and how this was actually the tougher road

And somehow they get confuzzled on how that argument gets them laughed out of every place they go other than this board lmao

[dcstanley]

LeBron fans be like “lol dindu nuffin till Pippen” and high five each other and then write a 5000 word essay about how LeBron had no options other than teaming up with prime Wade/prime Bosh prime Kyrie/prime Love prime AD/prime Luka and how this was actually the tougher road

And somehow they get confuzzled on how that argument gets them laughed out of every place they go other than this board lmao

Yes, the hardest road is playing on a team capable of winning nearly 60 games and multiple playoff series with a literal replacement level player in your stead.

[KembaWalker]

LeBron fans be like “lol dindu nuffin till Pippen” and high five each other and then write a 5000 word essay about how LeBron had no options other than teaming up with prime Wade/prime Bosh prime Kyrie/prime Love prime AD/prime Luka and how this was actually the tougher road

And somehow they get confuzzled on how that argument gets them laughed out of every place they go other than this board lmao

Yes, the hardest road is playing on a team capable of winning nearly 60 games and multiple playoff series without you with a literal replacement level player in your stead.

all i'm reading here is that MJ left hardware on the table, pretty unreal that your guy is still desperately trying to catch up

[70sFan]

LeBron fans be like “lol dindu nuffin till Pippen” and high five each other and then write a 5000 word essay about how LeBron had no options other than teaming up with prime Wade/prime Bosh prime Kyrie/prime Love prime AD/prime Luka and how this was actually the tougher road

And somehow they get confuzzled on how that argument gets them laughed out of every place they go other than this board lmao

Yes, the hardest road is playing on a team capable of winning nearly 60 games and multiple playoff series without you with a literal replacement level player in your stead.

all i'm reading here is that MJ left hardware on the table, pretty unreal that your guy is still desperately trying to catch up

I wonder when you all realize that Bill Russell actually existed...

[bigboi]

MJ is better than Bron lol. Shai over Jokic too

[Ian Scuffling]

I've legitimately never seen you post in a single thread that doesn't involve MJ, and ive never seen you post anything other than attempts to devalue MJ.

I don't care about your arguments or stats, or anything but I really do want to know why you feel this way about MJ. This isnt about basketball

Because helping annihilate the mythos of the biggest fraud in team sport history is a cause worthy of my talents. As well as my Noblesse oblige.

(There are also myriad side-benefits like easy prose/world-building/logical reasoning practice, networking, and now even financial compensation).

Low opportunity cost, high reward, and makes the world better. Pretty good deal all considered.

LOL...This is brilliant. And I say that as a huge Jordan stan of whom I had as the GOAT until just recently. I still have him as being on the Mt. Rushmore, though. Too hard to claim GOATs with different eras, imho. But, having lived in Chicago and still being close friends with a few Jordan fanboys making it a cottage industry to devalue and denigrate James at all costs, this struck me as a worthy avocation.

[Heej]

I've legitimately never seen you post in a single thread that doesn't involve MJ, and ive never seen you post anything other than attempts to devalue MJ.

I don't care about your arguments or stats, or anything but I really do want to know why you feel this way about MJ. This isnt about basketball

Because helping annihilate the mythos of the biggest fraud in team sport history is a cause worthy of my talents. As well as my Noblesse oblige.

(There are also myriad side-benefits like easy prose/world-building/logical reasoning practice, networking, and now even financial compensation).

Low opportunity cost, high reward, and makes the world better. Pretty good deal all considered.

LOL...This is brilliant. And I say that as a huge Jordan stan of whom I had as the GOAT until just recently. I still have him as being on the Mt. Rushmore, though. Too hard to claim GOATs with different eras, imho. But, having lived in Chicago and still being close friends with a few Jordan fanboys making it a cottage industry to devalue and denigrate James at all costs, this struck me as a worthy avocation.

Honestly it makes sense when you read this thread and see a guy blaming LeBron for being too good at an early age and wanting to play for a championship caliber organization instead of having the good fortune of being drafted by one

[ball_takes23]

Lebron fans just casually lumping his passing/playmaking in with Jokic and hoping no one calls them out on it. Last season Lebron scored 25.7 on 63% TS compared to Jokic 26.4 on 65% TS while playing equivalent (or better) defense than Jokic. And despite this Lebron received a third team all-NBA while Jokic won his third MVP in 4 years. The reason for this is because Jokic in a completely separate ballpark from Lebron (and pretty much everyone else) as a passer. It's the reason why even in their primes Lebron's or MJs offensive games never reached the level that Jokic is currently playing at. Lebron and MJ are much closer to each other as playmakers than either one of them are to Jokic.