One_and_Done wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:One_and_Done wrote:So I think you’ve almost got it. Yes, I think Duncan or Lebron would have done better with the 2002 Wolves. I know that because when those 2 guys had even worse support casts (e.g. 01-03 Spurs, 09-10 Cavs), they did indeed do better.
That is why I have focussed so much on 2002 for KG, even though there are other years I could point to, because it’s the cleanest example. KG’s most hardcore fans insist that he had a Duncan or Lebron like lift, but that his support cast was just so bad he couldn’t do it for this year or that year. Then you have 2002, where there’s really no excuses at all. What KG had wasn’t optimal in that year obviously, but it was indisputably better than what Duncan had in 01-03, or what Lebron had in 09 or 10. The results were very different though.
You ask “could KG really beat the 02 Spurs!?”. Well no, because they had Tim Duncan. Other than Duncan though, that Spurs team was almost bereft of talent. That might be the worst support cast Duncan ever played on, even moreso than 01 with their awful guard rotation, or 03 when they needed to turn to journeyman point guard Speedy Claxton in the finals. Yet the Spurs won 58, made the 2nd round, and put up a good showing against the Lakers. D.Rob was injured, and yet Duncan guarded Shaq 1 on 1 and outplayed him.
What those 2002 Spurs really had was an elite defense, with Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, and old man David Robinson (who got injured in the playoffs, and then the Spurs lost to the Lakers... but I'm aware you are lower than most on old man Admiral). Rookie Tony also flashed his potential come playoff time.
What those 2010 Cavs really had was... playing in the Eastern Conference. They weren't a high talent team, but they were deep with veterans who had functional fit. Shaq for bursts of offense, Mo Williams and Anthony Parker as spacers, tons of extra size to do the schtick of that era of Cavs (be massive if you're not good).
I'm not making the point that KG=Duncan=Lebron. I don't want to get caught up defending the supporting casts of those Spurs or Cavs team. I don't think they were good. My point has never been 2002 was an outlier awful roster, just that KG's supporting casts from 2000-2007 were outlier awful compared to any other prime of any other star.
I don't agree with you at all that 2002 was a good/normal supporting cast, but I can see how someone would argue it, especially someone who is really high on Rasho and Joe Smith. Do you think Lebron/Duncan beats those Mavs? I'm just not really clear on what your saying or equating. Each of these rosters faced different teams in different seasons. I get that you think Billups/Rasho/Wally/Joe is better than Tony/Bowen/Admiral or Shaq/Jamison/Mo/Parker/Varejao... I'm just not sure to what extent or what you think would happen if you moved these players around.
So, I completely disagree. Firstly, Bowen played only 59 games in 2002. D.Rob was also a shell of his former self. Duncan actually did a better job guarding Shaq in the 02 playoffs than D.Rob had ever done.
The rest of the Spurs cast was quite lamentable. Fringe bench player A.Daniels played 26.5 mpg. Borderline NBA player Charles Smith played 19mpg, and actually started 22 games. Steve Smith was washed. He could still hit open 3s, but that was it. After this season he was reduced to an end of the bench guy who gradually fell out of the league in a few years. The only reason he wasn’t that this year was because the Spurs were so desperate for bodies. Parker flashed promise, but a rookie point guard loses you games, and Parker was still so raw that even 1 year later he got his finals minutes stolen by a journeyman point named Speedy Claxton (and no, Speedy was not a secretly good player). Malik Rose was a below average player who the team mostly kept around because he was Duncan’s best friend.
That support cast was lamentable for a contender, yet Duncan carried them to 58 games and an SRS of 6.28. They were competitive against the Lakers in the 2nd round, despite missing D.Rob, losing games by 2, 6, 6, and 10 points respectively. In the first round, when Duncan’s father died, he actually missed a game. We got to see just what the support cast looked like without him in that game; they were down 57-31 at halftime, and then the Sonics took their foot off the gas because they were winning so easily. I don’t think the Spurs without Duncan would have even won 20 games this year.
Duncan had no all-star team mates in 02. In contrast, KG had Wally who actually made the all-star team that year. But of course, Wally wasn’t even the 2nd best Timberwolf. Whichever of Brandon/Billips was starting was, and either option was significantly better than Duncan’s 2nd best player. I see a starting line-up of Brandon/Billups, Wally, J.Smith and Rasho, and it’s so much better than what the Spurs had it’s not even funny. They’re better on D too. The Spurs were starting rookie Parker and washed out Steve Smith. Neither of those guys could defend. The Wolves had 1 guy who wasn’t great on D in Wally, but that was about it, and he was still much better than rookie Parker or creaky old Smith. KG played the 3 with Smith, but in that era that was fine defensively. Offensively the Wolves were clearly better than the Spurs too.
Would Duncan or Lebron have won the Wolves more games, and taken them out of the 1st round? You bet. You dismiss Lebron with “he played in the East”. That criticism has never held, because the Cavs record against West teams in 09 and 10 is even better than West teams. They were going to win about that many games whether they were in the East or West. This wasn’t like the early 00s East pretenders, who would be 500. against Western teams and then pad their totals against the Leastern Conference.
Never mind 2002 though. Here is what Duncan’s 01 wing rotation did in the Lakers series that year. I am not making these numbers up, these are actual, real stats.
- Derek Anderson, only able to play 2 games because he was so hurt, put up 2ppg and 2rpg on 170. TS%, with an Ortg of 39. That is not a typo. Played 20mpg, and his Drtg of 126 undersells how bad his D was.
- Post Kidney disease Sean Elliot, able to play 3 games, averaged 1.3ppg, 1.7rpg, on 202. TS%. Also an Ortg of 39. Played 19mpg.
- Age 35 Avery Johnson, not that he was ever good, was playing 22mpg and putting up 6.3ppg, 2.3apg on 383 TS%. Ortg of 77.
- Terry Porter, too old to play D or do much of anything except throw a good inbounds pass, was playing 24.4mpg, and scored 6.3ppg on a FG% of 345. And a 3pt% of 167.
- Old man Dan Ferry, who started 2 games and played 26mpg, scored 3.5ppg on 467 TS%. He was one of their better wing contributors, except he couldn’t play any D and could do nothing but shoot open 3s. Ortg of 88.
That’s 5 of their top 8 guys in mpg. The others were D.Rob (shot 440 TS% this series, while only playing 29mpg), Duncan, and Antonio Daniels who played an absurd 42mpg, that’s how desperate they were for bodies (ADs Drtg of 121 was the worst of every rotation player except Derek Anderson). That is the worst wing rotation I have ever seen on a modern contender. EVER. Not only trash on O, but every one of their Drtg’s was horrible (as was their D in reality). Duncan and D.Rob were at 105 and 108, and every other Spur I just named was in the 113-126 range (mostly around 117).
