Better peak? Giannis or Barkley

[penbeast0]

Peak Giannis? Probably in 1992-94 at least (with Jordan and Hakeem, fighting with Robinson).

Don't think he is comparable with all three and Malone had arguably his best numbers seasons at about 1992. Ewing also could be seen as clearly better. Less scoring, what does Giannis excel in compared to those guys?

Everything?

Here are Giannis per 100 numbers from 2020-25:

43/17.1/8.5 on 625 TS%.

Ewing & Charles never had even a single season with that statistical profile, never mind over a 6 year stretch. D.Rob didn't really either, nor did Malone. Honestly, Giannis numbers hold up well compared to Jordan and Hakeem too.

Numbers aren't everything, but the non-numvers arguments are much the same. Only peak Hakeem, Jordan, and maybe D.Rob, are even in consideration with peak Giannis.

This is why we use relative to era numbers for both volume and efficiency. Today's game get a lot more shots up per game than they did in the 90s . . . the modern offensive idea is called pace and space . . . and (the space part) have considerably higher efficiency. Relative to the league, Barkley's efficiency is greater and his scoring volume is similar though one or the other may have some slight advantage.

The bigger questions are the impact of their playmaking and turnover efficiency offensively, the whole defensive effort and skill set, and the health/availability issue. I have Giannis clearly ahead for peak or 5 year prime . . . when healthy. But Giannis has missed an awful lot of time and playoff runs which is my one big qualifier in this comp.

[1993Playoffs]

Giannis for sure. You’re talking about a 30th guy with legit DPOY defense. Barkley is outclassed

[70sFan]

How many seasons would Giannis be top 3 in Barkley's era?

Peak Giannis? Probably in 1992-94 at least (with Jordan and Hakeem, fighting with Robinson).

Don't think he is comparable with all three and Malone had arguably his best numbers seasons at about 1992. Ewing also could be seen as clearly better. Less scoring, what does Giannis excel in compared to those guys?

Giannis is a better defender than all but Hakeem and Ewing, he's better passer than all bigs but maybe Malone. Putting 1994 Ewing over Giannis is ridiculous and I say it as someone quite high on Ewing.

Do you really believe that the best way to be good at basketball is to have a luck to play in the 1990s?

[penbeast0]

Peak Giannis? Probably in 1992-94 at least (with Jordan and Hakeem, fighting with Robinson).

Don't think he is comparable with all three and Malone had arguably his best numbers seasons at about 1992. Ewing also could be seen as clearly better. Less scoring, what does Giannis excel in compared to those guys?

Giannis is a better defender than all but Hakeem and Ewing, he's better passer than all bigs but maybe Malone. Putting 1994 Ewing over Giannis is ridiculous and I say it as someone quite high on Ewing.

Do you really believe that the best way to be good at basketball is to have a luck to play in the 1990s?

I would say for his era's needs, Robinson is equal to Hakeem as a defender and better than Ewing or Giannis. As he was mentioned, I hate to see him excluded here. Giannis also has significantly better handles and creates on the move better than any of the others, including Karl Malone.

I don't think it was luck, unless you mean that the league as a whole were lucky to see such great talents grouped together where they got to face off against each other.

For that matter, the big man group today of Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis is as good per minute as the Hakeem, DRob, Ewing trio in an situation where it is easier to make a strong offensive impact and harder to make a strong defensive one. The big difference is that Hakeem and Ewing were ironmen (and DRob was until the big injury) where today players and franchises don't use most players that way.

[70sFan]

Don't think he is comparable with all three and Malone had arguably his best numbers seasons at about 1992. Ewing also could be seen as clearly better. Less scoring, what does Giannis excel in compared to those guys?

Giannis is a better defender than all but Hakeem and Ewing, he's better passer than all bigs but maybe Malone. Putting 1994 Ewing over Giannis is ridiculous and I say it as someone quite high on Ewing.

Do you really believe that the best way to be good at basketball is to have a luck to play in the 1990s?

I would say for his era's needs, Robinson is equal to Hakeem as a defender and better than Ewing or Giannis. As he was mentioned, I hate to see him excluded here. Giannis also has significantly better handles and creates on the move better than any of the others, including Karl Malone.

I don't think it was luck, unless you mean that the league as a whole were lucky to see such great talents grouped together where they got to face off against each other.

For that matter, the big man group today of Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis is as good per minute as the Hakeem, DRob, Ewing trio in an situation where it is easier to make a strong offensive impact and harder to make a strong defensive one. The big difference is that Hakeem and Ewing were ironmen (and DRob was until the big injury) where today players and franchises don't use most players that way.

I forgot Robinson in defensive discussion, of course he's up there as well.

[OhayoKD]

Was Barkley ever a top 3 player in the league?

Hard to argue that he wasn't his MVP year ('93). Who besides Jordan and Hakeem? It was D-Rob's weakest prime season by far, and I don't think the next tier guys have much of any case (Ewing, Malone, rookie Shaq?).

I also had him 3rd in '90 [behind only Jordan and Magic]; I have him precisely 3rd both years [never higher]. No other years do I have him that high.

I'm not sure how it's hard to argue Ewing over Barkley, or really what even the counter-case is beyond MVP votes. It was Barkley whose help was demonstrably stacked, and it was Ewing who outplayed Jordan, especially in the closest games.

[Hair Jordan]

Barkley. Better all around player and floor raiser. Giannis is basically a poor man’s Karl Malone who feasts in a cupcake era devoid of traditional bigs. Barkley’s ‘93 peak outdistances anything Giannis ever did.

[rrravenred]

This is why we use relative to era numbers for both volume and efficiency. Today's game get a lot more shots up per game than they did in the 90s . . . the modern offensive idea is called pace and space . . . and (the space part) have considerably higher efficiency. Relative to the league, Barkley's efficiency is greater and his scoring volume is similar though one or the other may have some slight advantage.

The bigger questions are the impact of their playmaking and turnover efficiency offensively, the whole defensive effort and skill set, and the health/availability issue. I have Giannis clearly ahead for peak or 5 year prime . . . when healthy. But Giannis has missed an awful lot of time and playoff runs which is my one big qualifier in this comp.

Whilst I don't disagree with your overall point, think the effects of modern pace can be a bit overstated. Maximum variance between today and Barkley's Peak 90s teams is six possessions and four shots per game (and yes, the 2P and 3P FGA mix is a big point of difference)

This Season: Pace 99, FGA/G 89.3 (Bucks 99.7, 86.7)
1991: Pace 97.8, FGA/G 87.2 (Sixers 95.7, 84.5)
1992: Pace 96.6, FGA/G 87.3 (Sixers 93.5, 82.5)
1993: Pace 96.8, FGA/G 86.0 (Suns 99.8, 86.5)
1994: Pace 95.1, FGA/G 84.4 (Suns 96.7, 86.3)

Now, for Giannis the turn of the decade you absolutely have more of an argument, where the Bucks played fastest in the league at a pace of 105.1 heaving up 90 FGA. Also note that neither was a Helio on their respective teams which distributed their FGA across their squads, which arguably brings even those differences closer.

[One_and_Done]

Obviously, as I have explained many times, I don't think a flat era adjustment for efficiency, etc, is appropriate. Giannis would be even more dominant in Barkley's era.

[One_and_Done]

Barkley. Better all around player and floor raiser. Giannis is basically a poor man’s Karl Malone who feasts in a cupcake era devoid of traditional bigs. Barkley’s ‘93 peak outdistances anything Giannis ever did.

Peak Giannis is not only better than Barkley and K.Malone, he's arguably better than peak Jordan too. The teams from Barkley's day would be horrible if you teleported them into today's league.

[Hair Jordan]

Barkley. Better all around player and floor raiser. Giannis is basically a poor man’s Karl Malone who feasts in a cupcake era devoid of traditional bigs. Barkley’s ‘93 peak outdistances anything Giannis ever did.

Peak Giannis is not only better than Barkley and K.Malone, he's arguably better than peak Jordan too. The teams from Barkley's day would be horrible if you teleported them into today's league.

Nice try.

[One_and_Done]

Barkley. Better all around player and floor raiser. Giannis is basically a poor man’s Karl Malone who feasts in a cupcake era devoid of traditional bigs. Barkley’s ‘93 peak outdistances anything Giannis ever did.

Peak Giannis is not only better than Barkley and K.Malone, he's arguably better than peak Jordan too. The teams from Barkley's day would be horrible if you teleported them into today's league.

Nice try.

Not everyone got the benefit of playing in a weaker era like those guys.

[penbeast0]

Peak Giannis is not only better than Barkley and K.Malone, he's arguably better than peak Jordan too. The teams from Barkley's day would be horrible if you teleported them into today's league.

Nice try.

Not everyone got the benefit of playing in a weaker era like those guys.

Not everyone got the benefit of playing in a league with greater spacing, looser rules, and coaches that believe that superstars should take 40% of a team's shots either. You play the competition you are given and, if you are truly a great, exceed it.

[One_and_Done]

Nice try.

Not everyone got the benefit of playing in a weaker era like those guys.

Not everyone got the benefit of playing in a league with greater spacing, looser rules, and coaches that believe that superstars should take 40% of a team's shots either. You play the competition you are given and, if you are truly a great, exceed it.

Some players would be great in any era, others would not.

[Ol Roy]

Obviously, as I have explained many times, I don't think a flat era adjustment for efficiency, etc, is appropriate. Giannis would be even more dominant in Barkley's era.

With that era's paint protection, spacing, and ball handling rules?

Not without a better post-game and midrange jumper (and I need to see more of that than just this season) to serve as counters.

The "take off a runway" approach simply wouldn't work consistently then as it does now.

[One_and_Done]

I said a flat adjustment isn't appropriate, not that no era adjustment is ever appropriate.