Retro Player of the Year 1973-74 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[AEnigma]

Yeh, because it's a huge stretch that the team who took the defending champs to 7 close games in the ECFs would be able to get over the line if their point guard had 2 good knees instead of one.

It is when those “defending champs” do not put up any fight in the Finals.

May as well argue the 1971 Knicks would have beat the Bucks if Willis Reed were truly healthy.

Except that same team won the title the previous year, against the same Sonics, and those same Spurs existed minus Silas. If they had not just Silas but healthy Silas, it's hardly a stretch they'd have won at least 1 title over that span.

Those same Spurs minus Silas lost to the same team in a similarly even series, so seems like adding Silas back hardly made a difference at all, huh.

[One_and_Done]

It is when those “defending champs” do not put up any fight in the Finals.

May as well argue the 1971 Knicks would have beat the Bucks if Willis Reed were truly healthy.

Except that same team won the title the previous year, against the same Sonics, and those same Spurs existed minus Silas. If they had not just Silas but healthy Silas, it's hardly a stretch they'd have won at least 1 title over that span.

Those same Spurs minus Silas lost to the same team in a similarly even series, so seems like adding Silas back hardly made a difference at all, huh.

Adding back the one legged shell of Silas didn't seem to turn the tide, no. Here's a crazy idea; what if Silas had 2 good knees?

[One_and_Done]

Too many ABA guys in their primes fell off the cliff after the merger. Even the biggest stars like Erving and Gilmore. The only guys that really improved after the merger were guys that were very young in the ABA like Gervin, Thompson, Moses etc. Of course there are exceptions but ABA guys dropping off a lot after the merger is the trend here.

Erving did not 'fall off', not until he got hurt anyway. The 76er situation has been very well documented. They had too many scorers, and the coach asked Erving to sacrifice his shots to make it work; and despite the unbalanced roster it almost did. The Sixers made the finals in 77 and lost in a tight 6 game series.

Gilmore got sent to a garbage situation with no talent and wasn't used well.

So basically they fell off but you think there is are good explanations for it. Eh you need many explanations unless you acknowledge that the ABA was simply the weaker league. That covers almost all the bases.

They didn't fall off; your volume stats don't = your value.

[AEnigma]

Except that same team won the title the previous year, against the same Sonics, and those same Spurs existed minus Silas. If they had not just Silas but healthy Silas, it's hardly a stretch they'd have won at least 1 title over that span.

Those same Spurs minus Silas lost to the same team in a similarly even series, so seems like adding Silas back hardly made a difference at all, huh.

Adding back the one legged shell of Silas didn't seem to turn the tide, no. Here's a crazy idea; what if Silas had 2 good knees?

That “shell” was just as productive per possession as he was in 1974 and 1975, and then he was better in 1980 — not that it helped the team replicate their success. The primary difference was the lower minutes, and like I already said, that matters, but if thirty minutes of Silas was not changing much of anything, what exactly are you expecting out of another ten minutes.

You know, I am surprised I have yet to see you argue that Tim Duncan would have eight titles if not for that 2000 knee injury. Four titles won on one good knee, maybe he truly was the GOAT.

[One_and_Done]

Those same Spurs minus Silas lost to the same team in a similarly even series, so seems like adding Silas back hardly made a difference at all, huh.

Adding back the one legged shell of Silas didn't seem to turn the tide, no. Here's a crazy idea; what if Silas had 2 good knees?

That “shell” was just as productive per possession as he was in 1974 and 1975, and then he was better in 1980 — not that it helped the team replicate their success. The primary difference was the lower minutes, and like I already said, that matters, but if thirty minutes of Silas was not changing much of anything, what exactly are you expecting out of another ten minutes.

You know, I am surprised I have yet to see you argue that Tim Duncan would have eight titles if not for that 2000 knee injury. Four titles won on one good knee, maybe he truly was the GOAT.

Duncan's knee injury was not that serious. He was back better than ever before long. His slow, slow decline began in mid 04 with his foot injury actually. Probably the overcompensation began to exacerbate his knee wearing down.

Anyway, you clearly need to go research what happened to Silas more. He didn't just miss time, his career almost ended. He had like 3-4 attempts to make a comeback before he pulled it off in 79, and he was never the same. This isn't some controversial hot take, it's widely documented. The guy only had one good knee. To act like the only difference would be 'he'd play 10 more mpg' is just flat out wrong.

[AEnigma]

Adding back the one legged shell of Silas didn't seem to turn the tide, no. Here's a crazy idea; what if Silas had 2 good knees?

That “shell” was just as productive per possession as he was in 1974 and 1975, and then he was better in 1980 — not that it helped the team replicate their success. The primary difference was the lower minutes, and like I already said, that matters, but if thirty minutes of Silas was not changing much of anything, what exactly are you expecting out of another ten minutes.

You know, I am surprised I have yet to see you argue that Tim Duncan would have eight titles if not for that 2000 knee injury. Four titles won on one good knee, maybe he truly was the GOAT.

Duncan's knee injury was not that serious. He was back better than ever before long. His slow, slow decline began in mid 04 with his foot injury actually. Probably the overcompensation began to exacerbate his knee wearing down.

Anyway, you clearly need to go research what happened to Silas more. He didn't just miss time, his career almost ended. He had like 3-4 attempts to make a comeback before he pulled it off in 79, and he was never the same. This isn't some controversial hot take, it's widely documented. The guy only had one good knee. To act like the only difference would be 'he'd play 10 more mpg' is just flat out wrong.

Yeah actually he probably would have been scoring thirty points a game because that was just the trajectory he was on!

I am familiar with Silas. Generally a fan even. You do not get to use his injury as a cheap cudgel for a thoroughly nonsensical and unsubstantiated stance. In the ABA he played on a team that had basically no correlated success to his own play, and then he repeated the feat three years later in the NBA on an improved but still ultimately irrelevant version of that team. And that is the enduring legacy of the ABA franchise transfers: the immediate diminishment of its two best players, and a pair of conference finals losses to the losers of the consensus weakest two Finals in league history. Hang the banner.

[One_and_Done]

I'm not going to engage on this any further. I disagree. Period.

[Top10alltime]

Hey guys I did tracking for 74 kareem game 6 finals.

https://youtu.be/vGVumTgLPqM

Offense -
0:24 - Kareem sets screen for Oscar
3:13 - Oscar inbounds ball to Kareem, tipped back to Oscar
3:32 - Kareem wins tipoff for OT
3:39 - Kareem receives ball in left block, to Dandridge who bricks shot. (+DTO) Cowens unable to control offensive rebound, Kareem turnover with 3 sec violation. (Kareem - 1 DTO)
5:20 - Robertson in to Kareem gets doubled, pass back to Roberston, who passes.
6:13 - Kareem looking like he tries to back down Cowens, who fouls him.
7:18 - Cowens boxed out Kareem for rebound
7:50 - Kareem receives ball to be tripled this time, back to Oscar. (+2 DTOs, +1 EDTO) Oscar makes high post shot. (Kareem - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation)
9:20 - Oscar into Kareem, missed skyhook, draws defender at same time. Putback by someone I couldn't see.
10:05 - Kareem receives ball, Cowens pokes it away, for Kareem to make airballed long jumper.
11:40 - Kareem wins jumpball.
12:16 - Kareem wins tipoff for 2OT.
14:35 - Ball passed to Kareem, gets to pass to Dandridge who is doubled, bricked.
16:08 - Kareem doubled, fake pass. Hits skyhook over Cowens.
17:41 - Kareem receives ball from Oscar as he is doubled, leaving Oscar open, for enough time to move to make high post shot. (Kareem - 4 DTOs, 2 creation)
18:05 - Kareem fouled by Cowens, Cowens ejected out of game.
22:37 - Ball inbounded into Kareem, makes incredible game winning skyhook.

Defense -
1:40 - Kareem deflects ball pass from Havlicek to another Celtic player.
2:22 - JoJo White pass to Cowens on high post, Kareem guarding him. Cowens then heads to the right block for hook missed. (Kareem - 1 PP, 1 EPP)
4:06 - Kareem defends Cowen on outside, passes out.
5:57 - Havlicek drive into Kareem for a missed shot. (Kareem - 2 PP)
7:30 - Kareem on Cowens who passes down.
9:42 - Cowens left open on elbow for missed shot. (Kareem - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD)
10:15 - Kareem rotates on to Silas, possession cut since shot clock error.
11:07 - Kareem grabs defensive board, don't know why there should be jumpball there.
12:04 - Kareem lets Havlicek score uncontested shot after his own rebound. (Kareem - 3 PP, 1 IPP)
13:13 - Kareem on Cowens high post, pass to JoJo White.
13:42 - Kareem back on Cowens in high post, pass to JoJo White again. Back to Cowens, immediate swing to Chaney for bricked shot.
14:53 - Kareem attempt for steal, knocks out of bounds. Turnover.
16:26 - Kareem with late contest, Havlicek scores. (Kareem - 4 PP, 2 IPP)
17:01 - Nice job by Kareem there, Havlicek drawing two, doesn't stop drive. Kareem blocking hook-shot, but turnover again as he steps out of bounds.
17:54 - Kareem doesn't contest Havlicek shot, easy basket. (Kareem - 5 PP, 3 IPP)
21:15 - Would call this tough shot made by Havlicek, Kareem with good contest but Havlicek makes shot (Kareem - 6 PP, 2 EPP)

Final tally -

2 creations
4 DTOs
1 EDTOs

1 PPD
1 IPPD
6 PP
2 EPP
3 IPP

Around 19 possession of play here.

[OhayoKD]

Hey guys I did tracking for 74 kareem game 6 finals.

https://youtu.be/vGVumTgLPqM

Offense -
0:24 - Kareem sets screen for Oscar
3:13 - Oscar inbounds ball to Kareem, tipped back to Oscar
3:32 - Kareem wins tipoff for OT
3:39 - Kareem receives ball in left block, to Dandridge who bricks shot. (+DTO) Cowens unable to control offensive rebound, Kareem turnover with 3 sec violation. (Kareem - 1 DTO)
5:20 - Robertson in to Kareem gets doubled, pass back to Roberston, who passes.
6:13 - Kareem looking like he tries to back down Cowens, who fouls him.
7:18 - Cowens boxed out Kareem for rebound
7:50 - Kareem receives ball to be tripled this time, back to Oscar. (+2 DTOs, +1 EDTO) Oscar makes high post shot. (Kareem - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation)
9:20 - Oscar into Kareem, missed skyhook, draws defender at same time. Putback by someone I couldn't see.
10:05 - Kareem receives ball, Cowens pokes it away, for Kareem to make airballed long jumper.
11:40 - Kareem wins jumpball.
12:16 - Kareem wins tipoff for 2OT.
14:35 - Ball passed to Kareem, gets to pass to Dandridge who is doubled, bricked.
16:08 - Kareem doubled, fake pass. Hits skyhook over Cowens.
17:41 - Kareem receives ball from Oscar as he is doubled, leaving Oscar open, for enough time to move to make high post shot. (Kareem - 4 DTOs, 2 creation)
18:05 - Kareem fouled by Cowens, Cowens ejected out of game.
22:37 - Ball inbounded into Kareem, makes incredible game winning skyhook.

Defense -
1:40 - Kareem deflects ball pass from Havlicek to another Celtic player.
2:22 - JoJo White pass to Cowens on high post, Kareem guarding him. Cowens then heads to the right block for hook missed. (Kareem - 1 PP, 1 EPP)
4:06 - Kareem defends Cowen on outside, passes out.
5:57 - Havlicek drive into Kareem for a missed shot. (Kareem - 2 PP)
7:30 - Kareem on Cowens who passes down.
9:42 - Cowens left open on elbow for missed shot. (Kareem - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD)
10:15 - Kareem rotates on to Silas, possession cut since shot clock error.
11:07 - Kareem grabs defensive board, don't know why there should be jumpball there.
12:04 - Kareem lets Havlicek score uncontested shot after his own rebound. (Kareem - 3 PP, 1 IPP)
13:13 - Kareem on Cowens high post, pass to JoJo White.
13:42 - Kareem back on Cowens in high post, pass to JoJo White again. Back to Cowens, immediate swing to Chaney for bricked shot.
14:53 - Kareem attempt for steal, knocks out of bounds. Turnover.
16:26 - Kareem with late contest, Havlicek scores. (Kareem - 4 PP, 2 IPP)
17:01 - Nice job by Kareem there, Havlicek drawing two, doesn't stop drive. Kareem blocking hook-shot, but turnover again as he steps out of bounds.
17:54 - Kareem doesn't contest Havlicek shot, easy basket. (Kareem - 5 PP, 3 IPP)
21:15 - Would call this tough shot made by Havlicek, Kareem with good contest but Havlicek makes shot (Kareem - 6 PP, 2 EPP)

Final tally -

2 creations
4 DTOs
1 EDTOs

1 PPD
1 IPPD
6 PP
2 EPP
3 IPP

Around 19 possession of play here.

Per-Possession that gets you

Offense

.11 Creations
.21 DTOs
.05 EDTOs

Defense

.05 PPDs
.00 EPPDs
.05 IPPDs
.32 PPs
.11 EPPs
.16 IPPs

Thus far 1989 game 5 is the only game you've counted all the defensive inputs for:

Spoiler:

This would mean per-possession Top10alltime gave Jordan 0.12 PPs, 0.00 EPPs, and 0.09 IPPs along with .12 PPDs, 0.013 EPPDs, and 0.1 IPPs.

Kareem looks alot better here by these numbers though it's interesting even he had more ineffective than effective stuff.

[Top10alltime]

Hey guys I did tracking for 74 kareem game 6 finals.

https://youtu.be/vGVumTgLPqM

Offense -
0:24 - Kareem sets screen for Oscar
3:13 - Oscar inbounds ball to Kareem, tipped back to Oscar
3:32 - Kareem wins tipoff for OT
3:39 - Kareem receives ball in left block, to Dandridge who bricks shot. (+DTO) Cowens unable to control offensive rebound, Kareem turnover with 3 sec violation. (Kareem - 1 DTO)
5:20 - Robertson in to Kareem gets doubled, pass back to Roberston, who passes.
6:13 - Kareem looking like he tries to back down Cowens, who fouls him.
7:18 - Cowens boxed out Kareem for rebound
7:50 - Kareem receives ball to be tripled this time, back to Oscar. (+2 DTOs, +1 EDTO) Oscar makes high post shot. (Kareem - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation)
9:20 - Oscar into Kareem, missed skyhook, draws defender at same time. Putback by someone I couldn't see.
10:05 - Kareem receives ball, Cowens pokes it away, for Kareem to make airballed long jumper.
11:40 - Kareem wins jumpball.
12:16 - Kareem wins tipoff for 2OT.
14:35 - Ball passed to Kareem, gets to pass to Dandridge who is doubled, bricked.
16:08 - Kareem doubled, fake pass. Hits skyhook over Cowens.
17:41 - Kareem receives ball from Oscar as he is doubled, leaving Oscar open, for enough time to move to make high post shot. (Kareem - 4 DTOs, 2 creation)
18:05 - Kareem fouled by Cowens, Cowens ejected out of game.
22:37 - Ball inbounded into Kareem, makes incredible game winning skyhook.

Defense -
1:40 - Kareem deflects ball pass from Havlicek to another Celtic player.
2:22 - JoJo White pass to Cowens on high post, Kareem guarding him. Cowens then heads to the right block for hook missed. (Kareem - 1 PP, 1 EPP)
4:06 - Kareem defends Cowen on outside, passes out.
5:57 - Havlicek drive into Kareem for a missed shot. (Kareem - 2 PP)
7:30 - Kareem on Cowens who passes down.
9:42 - Cowens left open on elbow for missed shot. (Kareem - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD)
10:15 - Kareem rotates on to Silas, possession cut since shot clock error.
11:07 - Kareem grabs defensive board, don't know why there should be jumpball there.
12:04 - Kareem lets Havlicek score uncontested shot after his own rebound. (Kareem - 3 PP, 1 IPP)
13:13 - Kareem on Cowens high post, pass to JoJo White.
13:42 - Kareem back on Cowens in high post, pass to JoJo White again. Back to Cowens, immediate swing to Chaney for bricked shot.
14:53 - Kareem attempt for steal, knocks out of bounds. Turnover.
16:26 - Kareem with late contest, Havlicek scores. (Kareem - 4 PP, 2 IPP)
17:01 - Nice job by Kareem there, Havlicek drawing two, doesn't stop drive. Kareem blocking hook-shot, but turnover again as he steps out of bounds.
17:54 - Kareem doesn't contest Havlicek shot, easy basket. (Kareem - 5 PP, 3 IPP)
21:15 - Would call this tough shot made by Havlicek, Kareem with good contest but Havlicek makes shot (Kareem - 6 PP, 2 EPP)

Final tally -

2 creations
4 DTOs
1 EDTOs

1 PPD
1 IPPD
6 PP
2 EPP
3 IPP

Around 19 possession of play here.

Per-Possession that gets you

Offense

.11 Creations
.21 DTOs
.05 EDTOs

Defense

.05 PPDs
.00 EPPDs
.05 IPPDs
.32 PPs
.11 EPPs
.16 IPPs

Thus far 1989 game 5 is the only game you've counted all the defensive inputs for:

Spoiler:

This would mean per-possession Top10alltime gave Jordan 0.12 PPs, 0.00 EPPs, and 0.09 IPPs along with .12 PPDs, 0.013 EPPDs, and 0.1 IPPs.

Kareem looks alot better here by these numbers though it's interesting even he had more ineffective than effective stuff.

Well, Kareem 74 Finals Game 6 actually is similar to the game I tracked for Jordan, just better. I believe you said this yourself.