Joe Dumars vs Gary Payton

[AStark1991]

Elite perimeter defenders and consistent 18-20 PPG scorers. When they were both at their respective peaks, who would you rather have on your team?

[kcktiny]

Payton.

Far better rebounder, far more steals, far more blocks, all-defense 1st team 9 times (Dumars 4 times 1st team). Payton twice all-NBA 1st team, Dumars nada (was 2nd team). Payton 7 seasons 3000+ minutes, Dumars 3 seasons 3000+ minutes.

The 9 seasons (1993-94 to 2001-02) Payton was all-defense 1st team he averaged 39 min/g, 21 pts/g, almost 8 ast/g. Lead all PGs in points scored (14661), steals (1525), was 2nd in defensive rebounds, 3rd in assists (5494), 4th in blocks. Sonics averaged 53-54 wins a season all that time.

That's one helluva long peak.

[AStark1991]

Payton.

Far better rebounder, far more steals, far more blocks, all-defense 1st team 9 times (Dumars 4 times 1st team). Payton twice all-NBA 1st team, Dumars nada (was 2nd team). Payton 7 seasons 3000+ minutes, Dumars 3 seasons 3000+ minutes.

The 9 seasons (1993-94 to 2001-02) Payton was all-defense 1st team he averaged 39 min/g, 21 pts/g, almost 8 ast/g. Lead all PGs in points scored (14661), steals (1525), was 2nd in defensive rebounds, 3rd in assists (5494), 4th in blocks.

I'm going with Dumars. Payton was probably the better player when you talk about physical attributes, but Dumars had more leadership qualities and wasn't a hot head like Payton. I'd much rather have Joe in do-or-die situations mainly because of the mental stability aspect.

[penbeast0]

Payton was also more of a playmaker. If I want the last shot, I agree I'd rather have Dumars take it but Payton's motor and aggressiveness will create more, particularly as primary playmaker on your team.

[jojo4341]

Dumars is one of my favorite players because of his versatility and willingness to support his teammates. But bias aside here are my pros/cons for these guys:

Joe Dumars
Pros:
- better shooter
- better off-ball player (not ball-dominant)
- combo guard

Cons:
- bad rebounder even for SG
- size vs big wings
- not a vocal leader (but leads by example)

Gary Payton
Pros:
- better lockdown defender
- better floor general and playmaker
- better rebounder
- better post up game
- more size

Cons:
- worse perimeter shooter
- not a great off-ball player
- hot-head at times

Objectively, GP is clearly the better player in a vacuum and if you're starting from scratch. But on a deep or more balanced team, Joe Dumars can be an excellent 3rd option or a Robin as he was on the Bad Boys. He can fit on any team and any system as he's not the type that takes away from the alpha(s) of the team...while still be able to carry the scoring load in spurts as he did in the 1989 Finals. In short:

Building around or starting from scratch:
Gary Payton

Complimentary player on an established team:
Joe Dumars

[tsherkin]

Interesting one to consider. Dumars was, in my view, the better choice for scoring possessions. Both were elite defenders. I think penbeast's remark about playmaking is on-point (hehe, puns...), but I think the league environment is such that this is a little less important if you've got your scoring in order.

I guess it depends on the rest of the team you're looking to add them to. And in what league. Like, right now, I wouldn't want anything to do with Payton as a focal scoring option, because he wasn't even a stunner back in his own day. Now, his total lack of range would be a large impediment as a volume option from the point... although he would benefit from the pace of today's game compared to the late 90s and early 2000s. Now, if he was ratched back into the teens and was able to run a bunch, that might be a little more palatable. But also, his primary value came more as a man-on defender, and he'd be facing all kinds of screen action to switch him off, so I have to wonder if he'd have anything like the same level of impact today. He might, so it's a worthy ponder, just something to think about.

And then yeah, if we're talking about complementing a more established squad, it's Dumars without question. But if you've got no one and you're picking someone to start, he isn't the guy who's going to break down a defense in volume with his slashing and volume playmaking, so that also has to be a consideration.

[One_and_Done]

Payton by far, though both probably wouldn't be all-stars today.

[mdonnelly1989]

Payton by far, though both probably wouldn't be all-stars today.

Interesting when you feel like Gary Payton is around a top 10 PG of all
Time

[One_and_Done]

Payton by far, though both probably wouldn't be all-stars today.

Interesting when you feel like Gary Payton is around a top 10 PG of all
Time

I don't recall saying that, but if I did I was definitely overrating Payton.

I see a year ago I said I'd take Kyle Lowry over him, so it seems unlikely.
viewtopic.php?t=2400355

[mdonnelly1989]

Payton by far, though both probably wouldn't be all-stars today.

Interesting when you feel like Gary Payton is around a top 10 PG of all
Time

I don't recall saying that, but if I did I was definitely overrating Payton.

I see a year ago I said I'd take Kyle Lowry over him, so it seems unlikely.
viewtopic.php?t=2400355

No you didn't say that, I was saying that a majority of lists have him Top 10.

I think he's bordeline though.

[One_and_Done]

Interesting when you feel like Gary Payton is around a top 10 PG of all
Time

I don't recall saying that, but if I did I was definitely overrating Payton.

I see a year ago I said I'd take Kyle Lowry over him, so it seems unlikely.
viewtopic.php?t=2400355

No you didn't say that, I was saying that a majority of lists have him Top 10.

I think he's bordeline though.

Nah. He just played in a weaker era. In today's game he would be a borderline all-star at best.

[mdonnelly1989]

I don't recall saying that, but if I did I was definitely overrating Payton.

I see a year ago I said I'd take Kyle Lowry over him, so it seems unlikely.
viewtopic.php?t=2400355

No you didn't say that, I was saying that a majority of lists have him Top 10.

I think he's bordeline though.

Nah. He just played in a weaker era. In today's game he would be a borderline all-star at best.

Who's your top 10?

I imagine Oscar and Jerry West doesn't sniff it then. And Isiah? Magic?

[One_and_Done]

No you didn't say that, I was saying that a majority of lists have him Top 10.

I think he's bordeline though.

Nah. He just played in a weaker era. In today's game he would be a borderline all-star at best.

Who's your top 10?

I imagine Oscar and Jerry West doesn't sniff it then. And Isiah? Magic?

Magic would be up there. None of those other guys though. Likely Magic and Curry at the top, then guys like CP3 and Nash. Depends if guys like Harden count too.

[Warspite]

GP scored easy buckets off of his steals and Im not sure they would translate to today. Not as many passing lanes today and fewer post ups would hamper his effectiveness. If you give GP 4 more 3pt FGA (3 misses) and 2 fewer layups IMHO he would be a player that many on this board would be down on.

Dumars can flat out score. A Rich mans Bradley Beal that can defend.

[One_and_Done]

GP scored easy buckets off of his steals and Im not sure they would translate to today. Not as many passing lanes today and fewer post ups would hamper his effectiveness. If you give GP 4 more 3pt FGA (3 misses) and 2 fewer layups IMHO he would be a player that many on this board would be down on.

Dumars can flat out score. A Rich mans Bradley Beal that can defend.

A middle class man's Beal maybe. Prime Beal was a significantly superior player to Dumars, who was very much a product of his era just like GP.

[sp6r=underrated]

Payton by far, though both probably wouldn't be all-stars today.

I know you're down on older players. If someone holds your position it makes sense to emphasize older players wouldn't be all-stars today when they get compared to modern players.

But why do you add the aside when you are comparing two older players against each other?

[Jaivl]

Completely different calibers of players to me. Like comparing Jrue Holiday to Westbrook.