How are we remembering Bruce Bowen?

[XTC]

Specifically from 2001-2008

He made 8 all defensive teams during that time span (2nd team x3, 1st team x5), he was a 3x runner up for DPOY, and he shot the three ball at 39%... His consistency on the defensive end, being a perimeter players was impressive IMO, and he played a huge role in the Spurs winning 3 championship in his time there. His role was to defend and hit 3's, and he's one of the best pure 3+D players in NBA history IMO, but I feel like hes slightly underrated, and hes not talked about enough when we talk about great defenders.

How would Bruce Bowen fare in the current NBA? How good was Bruce Bowen?

[clearlynotjesse]

probably the dirtiest player of the millennium. i also hope people don't forget he could only shoot from the corners. man to man d was as good as it gets though. a lot quicker and stronger than he looked.

[AStark1991]

I view him and Draymond in very similar lights. There's no question that both of them are amongst the best defenders the league has ever seen, but at the same time I think it's undeniable that both of them were VERY fortunate to have found themselves in the situations they ultimately fell into. Bowen as we know him today isn't nearly the same without Popovich and Duncan, same goes for Draymond without Kerr and Steph.

[lessthanjake]

He was a great defender, but couldn’t do much of anything offensively except shoot corner threes.

One thing that’s interesting with him is that his playoff on-off and playoff RAPM look quite bad actually. And it’s not because of playing with bench units—he played very few playoff minutes without Duncan on the court. The Spurs just consistently did a lot worse in the playoffs with Bowen on the court. Is that just randomness? Maybe. There were 1810 playoff minutes without Bowen from 2002-2008, so it’s not a tiny sample but not an overly large one either. It’s possible it’s not randomness, though. With more time to game plan in the playoffs, maybe teams figured out how to punish the Spurs for Bowen’s offensive weaknesses. And maybe his physical defense was less of a benefit in the playoffs—where other players get away with being more physical too, so the gap between what a great-reputation defender can get away with and what everyone else gets away with isn’t as big in the playoffs as it was in the regular season.

[f4p]

He was a great defender, but couldn’t do much of anything offensively except shoot corner threes.

One thing that’s interesting with him is that his playoff on-off and playoff RAPM look quite bad actually.

Yeah, I looked after reading the first post and was shocked how bad it was. For 5 straight years from 2002 to 2006, he was AT LEAST -10 on/off in the playoffs. That's DeRozan territory. Hard to square with his amazing defense and the fact he's literally #1 in 3P% in NBA playoffs history. maybe he had off time that coincided with ginobili on time and ginobilis impact crushed bowens numbers or something.

[therealbig3]

Super dirty player. He had his strengths defensively, but he was constantly trying to injure opponents, and I’m pretty sure the extra emphasis on protecting shooters as they land was because of him injuring players.

He’s another example of a Spur that nobody really criticizes because as an organization they were so low key.

[lessthanjake]

He was a great defender, but couldn’t do much of anything offensively except shoot corner threes.

One thing that’s interesting with him is that his playoff on-off and playoff RAPM look quite bad actually.

Yeah, I looked after reading the first post and was shocked how bad it was. For 5 straight years from 2002 to 2006, he was AT LEAST -10 on/off in the playoffs. That's DeRozan territory. Hard to square with his amazing defense and the fact he's literally #1 in 3P% in NBA playoffs history. maybe he had off time that coincided with ginobili on time and ginobilis impact crushed bowens numbers or something.

Yeah, he kind of just looks bad across the board though. From 2002-2008, the Spurs were +5.12 in 1938 playoff minutes with both Ginobili and Bowen on, +13.36 in 1365 playoff minutes with Ginobili on and Bowen off, -4.87 in 1907 minutes with Ginobili off and Bowen on, and -2.62 in 446 minutes with both Ginobili and Bowen off. So the Spurs did great with Ginobili on and Bowen off. But it’s also the case that out of the Ginobili off minutes they did worse in the time Bowen was on than when Bowen was off. The only combination of Duncan, Ginobili, and Bowen that actually gets better with Bowen added is Ginobili on and Duncan off (i.e. Ginobili+Bowen is better than just Ginobili—it is +2.14 vs. +5.16). Every other combination is worse. Duncan+Ginobili+Bowen is way worse than Duncan+Ginobili (+17.48 vs. +5.11). Duncan+Bowen is way worse than just Duncan (+6.92 vs. -3.57). And just Bowen is worse than all three being off (-12.91 vs. -15.90). It really could just be randomness, though.

[LukaTheGOAT]

All-time defender and one of the individuals I least would want to play against because I might leave the arena in a wheelchair.

[jojo4341]

Even though 3 and D guys existed before him, he was someone that role players in the modern era could aspire to be...outside of the dirty plays of course. With that said:

Watch on YouTube

[MoreyWins]

Dirty player that Popovich turned a blind eye to

[giberish]

I view him as somewhat overrated. I'm not sure he was quite as elite on D as his reputation, but the biggest issue is on offense.

People look at his 3pt % and think that he was a good shooter. But he really only took open, stationary, catch and shoot corner 3's. That's better than being a complete non-shooter and was enough to keep him on=court but it's quite low value. And he really did nothing else on offense, so overall he was a very poor offensive player. Barely good enough to justify major minutes despite his elite defense and not that key to the Spurs winning.

[tsherkin]

Very dirty player. Early-ish example of 3+D guy. Bawlz at the line. Really not a nice guy to play against, kind of like the prototype for Draymond, without the passing.

[GSP]

Dirty player that Popovich turned a blind eye to

Seeing how livid and vocal Pop was about Zaza closeout on Kawhi was incredible given he coached Bruce Bowen

What i will remember about Bruce Bowen is he consistently finished higher than Tim Duncan in Dpoy voting. Obviously Timmy retiring w/o a Dpoy is absurd but fact that Bowen was consistently finishing higher in Dpoy voting is more absurd. Great defender tho

[jdzimme3]

The definition of 3&D. In some ways he was a limited usage version of draymond + klay

[Rich Michmond]

He was a great defender, but couldn’t do much of anything offensively except shoot corner threes.

One thing that’s interesting with him is that his playoff on-off and playoff RAPM look quite bad actually.

Yeah, I looked after reading the first post and was shocked how bad it was. For 5 straight years from 2002 to 2006, he was AT LEAST -10 on/off in the playoffs. That's DeRozan territory. Hard to square with his amazing defense and the fact he's literally #1 in 3P% in NBA playoffs history. maybe he had off time that coincided with ginobili on time and ginobilis impact crushed bowens numbers or something.

Bowen does not have the best career three-point percentage in the playoffs. He is pretty high on the list though (24th).

[giberish]

The definition of 3&D. In some ways he was a limited usage version of draymond + klay

Except he wasn't a good 3 point shooter. He was a very marginal shooter who limited himself to the absolute easiest shots because that was all he could make.

You see that now with some guys who limit themselves to only very open, stationary, catch and shoot 3's ending up with high 3pt% but very limited spacing value (though I can't think of anyone who operates so exclusively from short corners). He's the same type of shooter as a Tony Snell.

[jdzimme3]

The definition of 3&D. In some ways he was a limited usage version of draymond + klay

Except he wasn't a good 3 point shooter. He was a very marginal shooter who limited himself to the absolute easiest shots because that was all he could make.

You see that now with some guys who limit themselves to only very open, stationary, catch and shoot 3's ending up with high 3pt% but very limited spacing value (though I can't think of anyone who operates so exclusively from short corners). He's the same type of shooter as a Tony Snell.

Saying a guy who shot 42+% for 3 in the playoffs wasn't a good shooter because he only too easy open ones is a stretch in my opinion. His career regular season and playoff numbers are strong, he hit big shots in big moments, I don't care if they were primarily from the corner. One would think, if he could only hit from the corner that he would have been easier to defend, yet he still shot a great %.

[One_and_Done]

Teams didn't understand the importance of the corner 3 back then. Bowen would only shoot when wide open from a double team or overlap, he was not a good shooter. He could also only shoot from the corner; nowhere else. Today his impact would be less, and it was probably overrated in his own day by some people. He was really limited offensively. Even Danny Green was much better; he was both a great defender, but could also shoot from all over.

[Dr Positivity]

He was a man to man defensive genius, he had the least space between him and the player he was guarding without fouling them of anyone I've ever seen. He hit corner 3s but they were more open I think they would be in modern day, and is horrific at anything else on offense. This made him great for the playoffs as in a series against a star wing the elite man to man D is worth it. Like if the Rockets had him instead of Ariza in 2018, it might be enough for them to win since every Durant jumper would have a hand in his face.

Compared to Shane Battier or Danny Green for example, I believe they were better help defenders, worse at shutdown one on one D but still good, and the difference between them on offense is important, like if they have to dribble because of a close out and pass it to someone, there is some plays like that where I think it matters that Bowen is useless on offense outside of taking wide open 3s, and I believe the +/- reflects that. I think they were the better players overall.

[f4p]

He was a great defender, but couldn’t do much of anything offensively except shoot corner threes.

One thing that’s interesting with him is that his playoff on-off and playoff RAPM look quite bad actually.

Yeah, I looked after reading the first post and was shocked how bad it was. For 5 straight years from 2002 to 2006, he was AT LEAST -10 on/off in the playoffs. That's DeRozan territory. Hard to square with his amazing defense and the fact he's literally #1 in 3P% in NBA playoffs history. maybe he had off time that coincided with ginobili on time and ginobilis impact crushed bowens numbers or something.

Bowen does not have the best career three-point percentage in the playoffs. He is pretty high on the list though (24th).

Well, minimum 300 attempts. A few people would pass him at 200 but 300 isn't a crazy number and he's #1 of all those guys.