Prime Only: Better Defensively Jason Kidd or Alex Caruso

[mdonnelly1989]

Everything I've heard about Kidd was that he could defend multiple positions.

And obviously we see Caruso defend Jokic in spurts.

[CS707]

Get it together RGM.

[FrodoBaggins]

Caruso's per-possession impact is greater, but he's less durable and has far fewer offensive responsibilities. Kidd's value may be superior because of these factors. Alex exhibits a very high similarity match with Tony Allen in terms of his defensive impact footprint, role, and size. Wrote this about him a week ago:

Caruso absolutely is in the discussion for the greatest defender ever at 6'5". He's third all-time in career RAPM, which is a 28-year database going back to 1996-97 when play-by-play (PBP) data begun being tracked. At +5.3 per 100 defensive possessions, he's only behind Dikembe Mutombo (+5.6) and Kevin Garnett (+6.4).

This number also most likely understates because it doesn't account for the defensive value that he generates from live-ball turnovers. These scores are considered as offensive RAPM. This is a consideration for defenders with significant turnover impact on defense. Alex has the highest DTOV (+2.5) in the 1996-97 to 2024-25 database, slightly ahead of Tony Allen (+2.3).

Alex Caruso and Tony Allen have a similar defensive impact footprint:

Caruso: +1.9 DEFG, +2.5 DTOV, -1.1 DREB, -0.9 DFTR (+5.3 DRAPM) [8.2k minutes]
Allen: +1.7 DEFG, +2.3 DTOV, -0.7 DREB, -1.2 DFTR (+4.0 DRAPM) [18.1k minutes]

EFG (Effective Field Goal Percentage): Measures shooting efficiency, accounting for the fact that 3-pointers are worth more than 2-pointers.
TOV (Turnover Percentage): The rate at which a team turns the ball over per possession.
ORB (Offensive Rebound Percentage): The rate at which a team rebounds its own missed shots.
FTR (Free Throw Rate): The rate at which a team gets to the free throw line relative to its field goal attempts.

Where they differ is the average position played. On a scale from 1 (PG) to 5 (C), Caruso is a 1.5 while Allen is a 2.0 positional average.

What's so unique about Caruso and Allen is the combination of DEFG and DTOV impact. Usually speaking, a high DTOV comes with the tradeoff of a weak, subpar, or middling OEFG. It makes sense: guys who generate a lot of turnovers on defense are often out of position and gambling. Hard to contest a shot if an opponent is open.

All of the other high-ranking DTOV guys hover around neutral for DEFG. Alex and Tony are able to generate GOAT levels of defensive turnovers while significantly lowering the opponent's effective field goal percentage. Like, 21st and 29th in DEFG all-time; right there with great defensive Cs and FWDs.

Caruso has an insane -12.1 opponent regular season ORtg-adjusted on-court rDRtg in the playoffs. That's a 47-game sample. OKC has a whopping -18.0 opponent-adjusted rDRtg with Alex on-court over 16 games so far this postseason.

Playoff rORTG and rDRTG (relative Offensive/Defensive Ratings) is the player's career on court offensive/defensive ratings in the playoffs relative to their playoff opponents' reg season defensive and offensive ratings. This gives us a more fair measure of how the team offense/defense performed.

Best 5-year DRAPM:

2020-2024 Caruso: +4.4 (14,949 possessions)
2001-2005 Kidd: +2.0 (31,444 possessions)
2014-2018 Tony Allen: +3.8 (13,892 possessions)

If you consider the number of possessions and calculate the accumulated value, it'd work out like this:

Caruso: 657.8
Kidd: 628.9
Allen: 527.9

Era, I'm sure, is a factor, and obviously, role. We're comparing two defensive role players to a two-way franchise point guard. I'm sure Kidd's per-possession impact would've been higher if he had fewer responsibilities, like Bruce Bowen.

[mdonnelly1989]

Caruso's per-possession impact is greater, but he's less durable and has far fewer offensive responsibilities. Kidd's value may be superior because of these factors. Alex exhibits a very high similarity match with Tony Allen in terms of his defensive impact footprint, role, and size. Wrote this about him a week ago:

Caruso absolutely is in the discussion for the greatest defender ever at 6'5". He's third all-time in career RAPM, which is a 28-year database going back to 1996-97 when play-by-play (PBP) data begun being tracked. At +5.3 per 100 defensive possessions, he's only behind Dikembe Mutombo (+5.6) and Kevin Garnett (+6.4).

This number also most likely understates because it doesn't account for the defensive value that he generates from live-ball turnovers. These scores are considered as offensive RAPM. This is a consideration for defenders with significant turnover impact on defense. Alex has the highest DTOV (+2.5) in the 1996-97 to 2024-25 database, slightly ahead of Tony Allen (+2.3).

Alex Caruso and Tony Allen have a similar defensive impact footprint:

Caruso: +1.9 DEFG, +2.5 DTOV, -1.1 DREB, -0.9 DFTR (+5.3 DRAPM) [8.2k minutes]
Allen: +1.7 DEFG, +2.3 DTOV, -0.7 DREB, -1.2 DFTR (+4.0 DRAPM) [18.1k minutes]

EFG (Effective Field Goal Percentage): Measures shooting efficiency, accounting for the fact that 3-pointers are worth more than 2-pointers.
TOV (Turnover Percentage): The rate at which a team turns the ball over per possession.
ORB (Offensive Rebound Percentage): The rate at which a team rebounds its own missed shots.
FTR (Free Throw Rate): The rate at which a team gets to the free throw line relative to its field goal attempts.

Where they differ is the average position played. On a scale from 1 (PG) to 5 (C), Caruso is a 1.5 while Allen is a 2.0 positional average.

What's so unique about Caruso and Allen is the combination of DEFG and DTOV impact. Usually speaking, a high DTOV comes with the tradeoff of a weak, subpar, or middling OEFG. It makes sense: guys who generate a lot of turnovers on defense are often out of position and gambling. Hard to contest a shot if an opponent is open.

All of the other high-ranking DTOV guys hover around neutral for DEFG. Alex and Tony are able to generate GOAT levels of defensive turnovers while significantly lowering the opponent's effective field goal percentage. Like, 21st and 29th in DEFG all-time; right there with great defensive Cs and FWDs.

Caruso has an insane -12.1 opponent regular season ORtg-adjusted on-court rDRtg in the playoffs. That's a 47-game sample. OKC has a whopping -18.0 opponent-adjusted rDRtg with Alex on-court over 16 games so far this postseason.

Playoff rORTG and rDRTG (relative Offensive/Defensive Ratings) is the player's career on court offensive/defensive ratings in the playoffs relative to their playoff opponents' reg season defensive and offensive ratings. This gives us a more fair measure of how the team offense/defense performed.

Best 5-year DRAPM:

2020-2024 Caruso: +4.4 (14,949 possessions)
2001-2005 Kidd: +2.0 (31,444 possessions)
2014-2018 Tony Allen: +3.8 (13,892 possessions)

If you consider the number of possessions and calculate the accumulated value, it'd work out like this:

Caruso: 657.8
Kidd: 628.9
Allen: 527.9

Era, I'm sure, is a factor, and obviously, role. We're comparing two defensive role players to a two-way franchise point guard. I'm sure Kidd's per-possession impact would've been higher if he had fewer responsibilities, like Bruce Bowen.

Regardless of responsibility strictly on eye test Tony Allen is the greatest perimeter defender I've ever seen. I don't know how you get much better.

[mdonnelly1989]

.

[tsherkin]

.

This post was deep; it really reached me on a profound intellectual level.

Anyway, Kidd was a pretty nasty defender even in 2011 with the Mavs... and was pretty good even in that last season with the Knicks. Dude was strong, smart, big, had great anticipation and timing. I like Caruso and he's The Guy du jour, but we don't have most of the same tracking stats for Kidd as we do for Caruso and J-Kidd's impact on the Nets was pretty clear, I think... even as their lead guy on offense. Imagine if he was playing more limited minutes in his youth on a high-end team with an insane defensive frontcourt?

[Doctor MJ]

Everything I've heard about Kidd was that he could defend multiple positions.

And obviously we see Caruso defend Jokic in spurts.

In terms of how they actually play this is Caruso...but he plays so much less and we don't know what Kidd could have done if defense was his only thing and he played limited minutes so he could go 110% whenever he played.

[Johnny Firpo]

.

This post was deep; it really reached me on a profound intellectual level.

Anyway, Kidd was a pretty nasty defender even in 2011 with the Mavs... and was pretty good even in that last season with the Knicks. Dude was strong, smart, big, had great anticipation and timing. I like Caruso and he's The Guy du jour, but we don't have most of the same tracking stats for Kidd as we do for Caruso and J-Kidd's impact on the Nets was pretty clear, I think... even as their lead guy on offense. Imagine if he was playing more limited minutes in his youth on a high-end team with an insane defensive frontcourt?

It was a double post from the guy. I think Caruso is better btw, huge Kidd fan, was great for us during the 2011 run, but based on what I saw from Caruso, he is better. Definitely better against small forwards and power forwards, maybe Kidd was better during his peak against quick point guards?

[tsherkin]

It was a double post from the guy.

And? We all know that part of my remark was irrelevant and nothing profound

I think Caruso is better btw, huge Kidd fan, was great for us during the 2011 run, but based on what I saw from Caruso, he is better. Definitely better against small forwards and power forwards, maybe Kidd was better during his peak against quick point guards?

Kidd was a nasty defender. I don't think I ever saw him do what Caruso did to Jokic, but he also wasn't allowed to foul that way, either, so there's that. Caruso's a magnificent defender, but it's worth remembering that it's been 20 years or so since we saw J-Kidd in his prime, and what he was doing in New Jersey was pretty wild at the turn of the century.

[Johnny Firpo]

It was a double post from the guy.

And? We all know that part of my remark was irrelevant and nothing profound

I think Caruso is better btw, huge Kidd fan, was great for us during the 2011 run, but based on what I saw from Caruso, he is better. Definitely better against small forwards and power forwards, maybe Kidd was better during his peak against quick point guards?

Kidd was a nasty defender. I don't think I ever saw him do what Caruso did to Jokic, but he also wasn't allowed to foul that way, either, so there's that. Caruso's a magnificent defender, but it's worth remembering that it's been 20 years or so since we saw J-Kidd in his prime, and what he was doing in New Jersey was pretty wild at the turn of the century.

Okay, I just didn't realize it was a joke, thought you didn't see that it was a double post. That's true about Caruso on Jokic, that was some crazy stuff from the refs.

[tsherkin]

Okay, I just didn't realize it was a joke, thought you didn't see that it was a double post.

In your defense, I could have green-fonted or /s, so that's on me.

That's true about Caruso on Jokic, that was some crazy stuff from the refs.

Again, I don't mean to take away from Caruso at all. He's phenomenal, and this isn't like an "X by a landslide" kind of a discussion at all, for sure.