Peak For Peak More Athletic: A.I or Kobe

[TheGOATRises007]

Yeah I mean there's just no way AI would be a top 10 athlete in any sport if he committed to that sport from a young age. That's just complete nonsense.

[threethehardway]

Level of athleticism within a sport and success within that sport are not the same thing. You can't just conflate them like they are. You can't assume that due to athleticism that AI could have been a great shortstop without him showing the skills to be a great ss and ability to be decent at the plate. It's fine to say that you think AI was a better athlete than Kobe. That doesn't mean he could have been great at any sport. You just sound like a giant fanboy right now tbh. I think Kobe did pop off the screen at times in his early days. He was one of the best in game dunkers in the league.

I am saying that AI has demonstrated the type of athleticism that translates to across all ball sports. He has the athletic profile that would make him be a top athlete in multiple ballsports, which makes him a better athlete than Kobe.

He was an elite high school football player and translated his football athleticism, like most elite high school football players that turn pro ballers, into basketball.

Elite high school football players that play skill positions, explode differently.


Basketball athleticism is different. It's graceful, highly coordinated it isn't sudden and powerful. It's Kobe, Demar Derozan, Vince Carter. It looks pretty.

Then you have guys like AI, Jalen Suggs, Paolo Banchero and Lebron James that take football movements into basketball. It's high horsepower, hard charging, changing direction at fast speeds and sharp angles.

The athleticism required to be elite at a skill position in football just at the high school translates better. I mean, there's a reason why Deion Sanders is the GOAT American athlete if we are just talking about athleticism.

[frica]

Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

He has two seasons (his first two) with more than 14 dunks, and two others with 10+ (10 and 14).

Kobe had a season where he had 116, and 11 others with 50+, as well as one with 49 (and 12 in a row with 49+).

Dunks in a season won't really work in AI's favor here. The extra like 5-7" of height does play there, of course.

Iverson has an insane amount of dunks for somebody who's in reality 5'10 or 5'11.
He actually dunked more than a peak Derrick Rose.

[tsherkin]

Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

He has two seasons (his first two) with more than 14 dunks, and two others with 10+ (10 and 14).

Kobe had a season where he had 116, and 11 others with 50+, as well as one with 49 (and 12 in a row with 49+).

Dunks in a season won't really work in AI's favor here. The extra like 5-7" of height does play there, of course.

Iverson has an insane amount of dunks for somebody who's in reality 5'10 or 5'11.
He actually dunked more than a peak Derrick Rose.

Sure, especially over his first couple seasons. He had a putback on a FT, I recall, which was pretty wild.

[Cavsfansince84]

I am saying that AI has demonstrated the type of athleticism that translates to across all ball sports. He has the athletic profile that would make him be a top athlete in multiple ballsports, which makes him a better athlete than Kobe.

He was an elite high school football player and translated his football athleticism, like most elite high school football players that turn pro ballers, into basketball.

Elite high school football players that play skill positions, explode differently.


Basketball athleticism is different. It's graceful, highly coordinated it isn't sudden and powerful. It's Kobe, Demar Derozan, Vince Carter. It looks pretty.

Then you have guys like AI, Jalen Suggs, Paolo Banchero and Lebron James that take football movements into basketball. It's high horsepower, hard charging, changing direction at fast speeds and sharp angles.

The athleticism required to be elite at a skill position in football just at the high school translates better. I mean, there's a reason why Deion Sanders is the GOAT American athlete if we are just talking about athleticism.

For one thing I already said that if you take size out of the equation that AI is a better athlete than Kobe so there's no more reason to bring that up here. Even though that it's sort of a cop out because shorter guys tend to be quicker to begin with. Second, I know about football, so I don't need to understand different types of athleticism that apply to it. You can't separate AI's actual body type from his athleticism when trying to say how athletic he'd be in different sports because that's just an irrelevant thing to do. In football, the only position he'd have any chance of playing is cornerback and even there he'd probably lack the strength to play it. More so though we know he played qb in hs but it's beyond silly to call him elite in hs and think that somehow means anything with regard to the nfl. It means zero. Plenty of guys are great hs players and never play more than a few games in the nfl. So at this point just believe w/e you want to believe because nothing I say will make any difference here.

[Peregrine01]

AI if we’re talking about pure measurables like speed, jumping ability, motor, etc. But it’s harder to match the same measurables the bigger you are.

coordination is also extremely underrated and Kobe’s coordination and fluidity at 6’6” was pretty incredible. By the same token, it’s why I think Jokic’s athleticism is way unappreciated. To be 7 foot tall, 300 lbs and have the feet of a ballerina is really insane.

[tsherkin]

AI if we’re talking about pure measurables like speed, jumping ability, motor, etc. But it’s harder to match the same measurables the bigger you are.

coordination is also extremely underrated and Kobe’s coordination and fluidity at 6’6” was pretty incredible. By the same token, it’s why I think Jokic’s athleticism is way unappreciated. To be 7 foot tall, 300 lbs and have the feet of a ballerina is really insane.

I think Bryant stands out less against his peers at size (as well as in the absolute) than someone like AI, though. Like, Bryant was quite athletic, but he never really dominated at the upper level of athleticism in the league. His game used quickness, but he did a lot more work with his handle and jumper, and movement off-ball than he did just blowing past guys. And then by like 03, he was bulking up and using more power, and was visibly slower.

AI was an insane athlete in terms of coordination as well. His balance when he was changing directions was fairly insane, for example.

[Peregrine01]

AI if we’re talking about pure measurables like speed, jumping ability, motor, etc. But it’s harder to match the same measurables the bigger you are.

coordination is also extremely underrated and Kobe’s coordination and fluidity at 6’6” was pretty incredible. By the same token, it’s why I think Jokic’s athleticism is way unappreciated. To be 7 foot tall, 300 lbs and have the feet of a ballerina is really insane.

I think Bryant stands out less against his peers at size (as well as in the absolute) than someone like AI, though. Like, Bryant was quite athletic, but he never really dominated at the upper level of athleticism in the league. His game used quickness, but he did a lot more work with his handle and jumper, and movement off-ball than he did just blowing past guys. And then by like 03, he was bulking up and using more power, and was visibly slower.

AI was an insane athlete in terms of coordination as well. His balance when he was changing directions was fairly insane, for example.

Agreed that AI was way more of an outlier athletically than Kobe. The biggest thing was his motor to me. I used to think of motor like conditioning, something that could was developed through hard work and training but AI is the most obvious paradoxical example disproving that. I now think preternatural stamina and motor is mostly God-given.

[tsherkin]

Agreed that AI was way more of an outlier athletically than Kobe. The biggest thing was his motor to me. I used to think of motor like conditioning, something that could was developed through hard work and training but AI is the most obvious paradoxical example disproving that. I now think preternatural stamina and motor is mostly God-given.

Yeah, you could say many things about AI, but he kept going. He was also a tough little bastard who kept driving no matter how many times, nor how hard, you knocked him into the floor.

Yeah, he was a wild outlier in terms of cardiopulmonary performance; it had been noted his whole career. He was WILD for his ability to maintain energy through the minutes he played.

[LakerLegend]

Relative to their size, it's pretty close. The thing is, AI obviously didn't do strength training at all. Weight matters when it comes to agility and vertical (and speed in long distance running, aka stamina). Kobe had similar bounce and was as fast for his size. They both ran a similar time end to end of the court (about 4.3sec 40y). Where Iverson was was better than Kobe was in agility....changing speeds, changing directions (and again, because of weight). Iverson also had a better handle, so those 2 things combined made him much harder to stay in front of. Iverson did have a slightly higher max vertical (41" to 38") but again weight matters. Kobe was stronger than Iverson which more than makes up for 3" of vertical.

If Kobe was leaner, he may have had a 40+" vertical. Wilt Chamberlain had a 13'+ vertical reach before he joined the NBA (on the Globetrotters) but he was only like 220 pounds then. He bulked up to 260 when he joined the NBA and was as high as 320lbs. He still had a great vertical late in his career with the Lakers, but it wasn't what it was in college, because he was 100lbs heavier. Kobe was 50-60lbs heavier than Iverson, depending on stage of their careers (Kobe bulked up 10-15 lbs later in his career).

In terms of combine stats, they are relatively even, maybe a slight edge to Iverson. Even in speed, Iverson would would win agility and vert, Kobe winning strength. But I don't think that makes Iverson a better athlete than Kobe. He was just skinnier.

For reference, I'd say Derrick Rose was more athletic than Iverson, in terms of combine stats. Rose had a 40" vert, was faster, and stronger than Iverson. Iverson probably still wins agility contests though. And he also had a better handle. So Iverson is still a nightmare to guard because of that insanely great agility/handle combination, but that doesn't make him the overall better athlete.

We don’t have any official measure of Kobe’s peak vertical.