Anthony Davis vs Patrick Ewing

[migya]

Knowing what I know about there careers now….

If I was drafting a player I would have control over for a decade I would take Ewing who has shown more durability.

If I have a team that is on the cusp of winning and needed one more piece and was signing a 3-4 year deal I would take AD.

Take that for what’s it worth. But I find arguments lacking the nuance of the situation when it comes to players, goat status, Mount Rushmore, whose better, etc.

All situational. Excluding eras, Ewing is a Center that performed great against a number of alltime greats and is harder to find those than a PF who is 6'10 and didn't go against that many great bigs. AD has the tools and resume but I'd rather a 7' Center that carried his teams mostly to some success, one finals and two other very good playoffs.

I’m not dogging Ewing. I think he is a great player. I lived in Chicago when Jordan was in his prime and watched him go toe to toe with those Knick squads. They were tough as nails and Ewing was dominant.

But if it were modern day NBA play style with modern NBA officiating and I had a team with two really good players already I would probably take AD over Ewing for a 3-4 year run. If I was building a team from scratch and knew I would have both these guys for a decade I would take Ewing. AD as the main guy and his injury concerns is not a player I would want to start a build around. If I had a killer PG and Wing combo…sure. They could carry the regular season and AD could get some rest. It’s very similar to AD on the Lakers when Bron carried him…that worked. Now that AD has to be the man in Dallas I think it’s going to take a toll on him and be an issue.

I voted Ewing. Longevity matters.

If it's current era, with the way it favors smaller player styles, maybe AD is better, but if you already have two really good players, I think you might be thinking the level of say Doncic and Booker (maybe Kyrie would do instead of Booker), I think adding prime Ewing gives you a much better chance of winning a championship, simply because he is much more durable and so will likely be there until the end but also he anchors the lane and defensively better, while scoring well with a very good jumper, likely if you have him play from year one in this era then he shoots even the three quite well.

[Daddy 801]

All situational. Excluding eras, Ewing is a Center that performed great against a number of alltime greats and is harder to find those than a PF who is 6'10 and didn't go against that many great bigs. AD has the tools and resume but I'd rather a 7' Center that carried his teams mostly to some success, one finals and two other very good playoffs.

I’m not dogging Ewing. I think he is a great player. I lived in Chicago when Jordan was in his prime and watched him go toe to toe with those Knick squads. They were tough as nails and Ewing was dominant.

But if it were modern day NBA play style with modern NBA officiating and I had a team with two really good players already I would probably take AD over Ewing for a 3-4 year run. If I was building a team from scratch and knew I would have both these guys for a decade I would take Ewing. AD as the main guy and his injury concerns is not a player I would want to start a build around. If I had a killer PG and Wing combo…sure. They could carry the regular season and AD could get some rest. It’s very similar to AD on the Lakers when Bron carried him…that worked. Now that AD has to be the man in Dallas I think it’s going to take a toll on him and be an issue.

I voted Ewing. Longevity matters.

If it's current era, with the way it favors smaller player styles, maybe AD is better, but if you already have two really good players, I think you might be thinking the level of say Doncic and Booker (maybe Kyrie would do instead of Booker), I think adding prime Ewing gives you a much better chance of winning a championship, simply because he is much more durable and so will likely be there until the end but also he anchors the lane and defensively better, while scoring well with a very good jumper, likely if you have him play from year one in this era then he shoots even the three quite well.

You very well might be right. Everyone criticizes older players for a lack of 3 point shooting but I know if it was as large of a part of the game as it is now many of the greats would have practiced it much more and been good at it. Ewing did have a nice touch so he probably could have extended his range.

Makes a player like Sabonis Sr. even more impressive to me. He was good back when bigs weren’t even asked to do things like that.

[migya]

I’m not dogging Ewing. I think he is a great player. I lived in Chicago when Jordan was in his prime and watched him go toe to toe with those Knick squads. They were tough as nails and Ewing was dominant.

But if it were modern day NBA play style with modern NBA officiating and I had a team with two really good players already I would probably take AD over Ewing for a 3-4 year run. If I was building a team from scratch and knew I would have both these guys for a decade I would take Ewing. AD as the main guy and his injury concerns is not a player I would want to start a build around. If I had a killer PG and Wing combo…sure. They could carry the regular season and AD could get some rest. It’s very similar to AD on the Lakers when Bron carried him…that worked. Now that AD has to be the man in Dallas I think it’s going to take a toll on him and be an issue.

I voted Ewing. Longevity matters.

If it's current era, with the way it favors smaller player styles, maybe AD is better, but if you already have two really good players, I think you might be thinking the level of say Doncic and Booker (maybe Kyrie would do instead of Booker), I think adding prime Ewing gives you a much better chance of winning a championship, simply because he is much more durable and so will likely be there until the end but also he anchors the lane and defensively better, while scoring well with a very good jumper, likely if you have him play from year one in this era then he shoots even the three quite well.

You very well might be right. Everyone criticizes older players for a lack of 3 point shooting but I know if it was as large of a part of the game as it is now many of the greats would have practiced it much more and been good at it. Ewing did have a nice touch so he probably could have extended his range.

Makes a player like Sabonis Sr. even more impressive to me. He was good back when bigs weren’t even asked to do things like that.

Sabonis in his prime would've been a case for top 50 ever.

[Daddy 801]

If it's current era, with the way it favors smaller player styles, maybe AD is better, but if you already have two really good players, I think you might be thinking the level of say Doncic and Booker (maybe Kyrie would do instead of Booker), I think adding prime Ewing gives you a much better chance of winning a championship, simply because he is much more durable and so will likely be there until the end but also he anchors the lane and defensively better, while scoring well with a very good jumper, likely if you have him play from year one in this era then he shoots even the three quite well.

You very well might be right. Everyone criticizes older players for a lack of 3 point shooting but I know if it was as large of a part of the game as it is now many of the greats would have practiced it much more and been good at it. Ewing did have a nice touch so he probably could have extended his range.

Makes a player like Sabonis Sr. even more impressive to me. He was good back when bigs weren’t even asked to do things like that.

Sabonis in his prime would've been a case for top 50 ever.

I think easily.

[trex_8063]

Not big on either of those guys. Probably go Ewing mainly due to availability.

Ewings defensive results prior to Riley were pretty underwhelming despite playing with a fair amount of talent (you know how many ridiculous posts from Ohayo I've had to read blowing smoke up Oakleys ass defensively, but somehow he+Ewing from '89-'91 were pretty much an average defense?).

Not to derail, but.....

I note that in '92, the Rockets were only a -0.2 rDRTG. Hakeem missed 12 games, though is still 4th on the team in minutes [and <100 minutes behind 2nd]. 2nd and 3rd in minutes were Kenny Smith [fair/passable defensive guard] and Vernon Maxwell [good defensive guard]; 5th was Buck Johnson [fair/passable defensive SF], and an aging Tree Rollins was 10th in minutes, fwiw. Some weak(ish) defenders otherwise, but jsia.

In '95, they were only a -0.9 rDRTG with Hakeem leading the team in minutes and 2nd-5th being [in order]: Robert Horry, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie: ALL of whom were fair/passable or better defensively.

In '96 they were only a -0.2 rDRTG, again with Hakeem leading in minutes and Robert Horry [good defender] being 2nd (and Mario Elie 8th, fwiw). Mostly fair(ish) defenders in between.


Those are lackluster results---considering the support---for a guy whom I suspect you probably have in the top 3-4 defensive centers of all-time, yes?
Consider also that the BEST defensive result ever achieved by a Hakeem-led team was more than +3 worse than what a Ewing-led defense achieved TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

Even if you believe the gap in quality of supporting casts to be large [and it was], that's an astounding result gap considering you also [again: I presume] think the gap between Ewing/Hakeem to be large.

With Riley we get plenty of +/- data and Ewing is not any kind of standout during the back half of his career (he's not horrendous either, he looks like a solid 3rd team type of guy on average from '94-'97).

Ish, I guess. Though again comparing to Hakeem in same years (their primes [back half, at least] pretty much exactly overlap):

'94 (rs APM)
One source [Ben Taylor's, iirc] has Hakeem +4.5 [4th in league], Ewing at +2.5 [tied for 17th in league]; colts18's data has Hakeem at +5.10 [4th in league], Ewing +3.64 [tied for 10th in league]

'95 (rs APM)
First source has Hakeem at +5.1 [tied for 6th] and Ewing +3.4 [tied for 20th]; colts18's data has Hakeem +4.47 [6th in league], Ewing +3.13 [18th]

'96 (rs APM)
First source has Hakeem +3.8 [14th in league], Ewing +2.8 [tied for 26th in league]; colts18's data has Hakeem +3.38 [11th in league], Ewing +2.46 [32nd].

'97 (NPI RAPM [includes playoff sample])
Hakeem is +3.37 [28th in league], Ewing is +4.82 (10th in league); fwiw, that's relatively consistent with [Taylor's??] APM for '97--->Ewing is +5.7 [10th in league] while Hakeem is +4.0 [tied for 26th].


Bear in mind, ^^^this is while Hakeem is undoubtedly the better offensive player, wouldn't you agree?
In short, there's a fair amount to suggest that Ewing [defensively] wasn't TOO far behind a guy that you likely (again: I'm assuming) consider to be among the top 3-5 defensive centers of all-time.


Again, not meaning to derail.
But when you kinda shrug at the Riley results [muttering about Oakley], and then highlight some less than stellar results in others, followed by pointing to +/- data that makes him look [in your words]: "not horrendous.....a solid 3rd team type of guy on average".......

....I sort of wonder if you're using a similar yardstick [and unflattering language] for evaluating the defense of some of his big man contemporaries (like Hakeem). I suspect not.

[eminence]

Not big on either of those guys. Probably go Ewing mainly due to availability.

Ewings defensive results prior to Riley were pretty underwhelming despite playing with a fair amount of talent (you know how many ridiculous posts from Ohayo I've had to read blowing smoke up Oakleys ass defensively, but somehow he+Ewing from '89-'91 were pretty much an average defense?).

Not to derail, but.....

I note that in '92, the Rockets were only a -0.2 rDRTG. Hakeem missed 12 games, though is still 4th on the team in minutes [and <100 minutes behind 2nd]. 2nd and 3rd in minutes were Kenny Smith [fair/passable defensive guard] and Vernon Maxwell [good defensive guard]; 5th was Buck Johnson [fair/passable defensive SF], and an aging Tree Rollins was 10th in minutes, fwiw. Some weak(ish) defenders otherwise, but jsia.

In '95, they were only a -0.9 rDRTG with Hakeem leading the team in minutes and 2nd-5th being [in order]: Robert Horry, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie: ALL of whom were fair/passable or better defensively.

In '96 they were only a -0.2 rDRTG, again with Hakeem leading in minutes and Robert Horry [good defender] being 2nd (and Mario Elie 8th, fwiw). Mostly fair(ish) defenders in between.


Those are lackluster results---considering the support---for a guy whom I suspect you probably have in the top 3-4 defensive centers of all-time, yes?
Consider also that the BEST defensive result ever achieved by a Hakeem-led team was more than +3 worse than what a Ewing-led defense achieved TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

Even if you believe the gap in quality of supporting casts to be large [and it was], that's an astounding result gap considering you also [again: I presume] think the gap between Ewing/Hakeem to be large.

With Riley we get plenty of +/- data and Ewing is not any kind of standout during the back half of his career (he's not horrendous either, he looks like a solid 3rd team type of guy on average from '94-'97).

Ish, I guess. Though again comparing to Hakeem in same years (their primes [back half, at least] pretty much exactly overlap):

'94 (rs APM)
One source [Ben Taylor's, iirc] has Hakeem +4.5 [4th in league], Ewing at +2.5 [tied for 17th in league]; colts18's data has Hakeem at +5.10 [4th in league], Ewing +3.64 [tied for 10th in league]

'95 (rs APM)
First source has Hakeem at +5.1 [tied for 6th] and Ewing +3.4 [tied for 20th]; colts18's data has Hakeem +4.47 [6th in league], Ewing +3.13 [18th]

'96 (rs APM)
First source has Hakeem +3.8 [14th in league], Ewing +2.8 [tied for 26th in league]; colts18's data has Hakeem +3.38 [11th in league], Ewing +2.46 [32nd].

'97 (NPI RAPM [includes playoff sample])
Hakeem is +3.37 [28th in league], Ewing is +4.82 (10th in league); fwiw, that's relatively consistent with [Taylor's??] APM for '97--->Ewing is +5.7 [10th in league] while Hakeem is +4.0 [tied for 26th].


Bear in mind, ^^^this is while Hakeem is undoubtedly the better offensive player, wouldn't you agree?
In short, there's a fair amount to suggest that Ewing [defensively] wasn't TOO far behind a guy that you likely (again: I'm assuming) consider to be among the top 3-5 defensive centers of all-time.


Again, not meaning to derail.
But when you kinda shrug at the Riley results [muttering about Oakley], and then highlight some less than stellar results in others, followed by pointing to +/- data that makes him look [in your words]: "not horrendous.....a solid 3rd team type of guy on average".......

....I sort of wonder if you're using a similar yardstick [and unflattering language] for evaluating the defense of some of his big man contemporaries (like Hakeem). I suspect not.

All things relative - Ewing ranking 30th, Davis 42nd in our most recent top 100. They are both very accomplished players, but I'm lower than that on both (more so Davis).

I've never made a 'Career defensive value' type of list, but I could reasonably see Hakeem in that range, slightly lower on a peak or prime list. I would have him with a fairly significant career lead on Ewing and the two of them more even for peak/prime defensively. Yes I generally rank Hakeem as cleanly better on O than Ewing.

Slight miscommunication - I do not mean to shrug at the Riley results, and I also do not mean to group them with Oakley. I am unimpressed by Ewings defensive work with Oakley from '89-'91. I don't think one can look at that stretch and make a very good case that Ewing was an all-time defender in that period (or earlier). I am impressed by Ewings D once Riley took the reins. I personally have '92-'94 as pretty clearly his peak stretch due to that defensive rise. Perfectly reasonable to have Ewing as the top big in the game in '92 in particular before Hakeem got Rudy and made an offensive step forward.

I am also a bit lower than standard here on Hakeem (6th vs fringe top 10). But mostly don't feel it's a good comp you've put together because Hakeems all-time case is more reliant PO performance than any other top end player. If I were strictly judging players based off regular season play I'd have him closer to fringe top 20 alltime. Ewing doesn't have those same playoff riser arguments, so comparing their RS results only holds a limited amount of value.

My Ewing career assessment in condensed form - I am happy with 'peak' Ewing from '92-'94 (top 5 guy, though a step behind Hakeem/MJ at their best during that same period), but not impressed by his play prior, and he followed a pretty standard aging curve after, lacking elite longevity.

[migya]

In light of the thread on Ewing's 1990 season - A comparison between that season and Davis' best season, likely 2020 for most?

Think Ewing's is clearly better, with less help, he carried more and was better on both ends.

[trex_8063]

All things relative - Ewing ranking 30th, Davis 42nd in our most recent top 100. They are both very accomplished players, but I'm lower than that on both (more so Davis).

I've never made a 'Career defensive value' type of list, but I could reasonably see Hakeem in that range, slightly lower on a peak or prime list. I would have him with a fairly significant career lead on Ewing and the two of them more even for peak/prime defensively. Yes I generally rank Hakeem as cleanly better on O than Ewing.

Slight miscommunication - I do not mean to shrug at the Riley results, and I also do not mean to group them with Oakley. I am unimpressed by Ewings defensive work with Oakley from '89-'91. I don't think one can look at that stretch and make a very good case that Ewing was an all-time defender in that period (or earlier). I am impressed by Ewings D once Riley took the reins. I personally have '92-'94 as pretty clearly his peak stretch due to that defensive rise. Perfectly reasonable to have Ewing as the top big in the game in '92 in particular before Hakeem got Rudy and made an offensive step forward.

I am also a bit lower than standard here on Hakeem (6th vs fringe top 10). But mostly don't feel it's a good comp you've put together because Hakeems all-time case is more reliant PO performance than any other top end player. If I were strictly judging players based off regular season play I'd have him closer to fringe top 20 alltime. Ewing doesn't have those same playoff riser arguments, so comparing their RS results only holds a limited amount of value.

My Ewing career assessment in condensed form - I am happy with 'peak' Ewing from '92-'94 (top 5 guy, though a step behind Hakeem/MJ at their best during that same period), but not impressed by his play prior, and he followed a pretty standard aging curve after, lacking elite longevity.

Appreciate the thoughtful reply. Few things.....

Personally, I push back on Hakeem having "a fairly significant career lead on Ewing and.....even more for peak/prime defensively". As per my above post, unless zeroing in block/steals numbers, the data otherwise would not seem to richly support a "significant lead" in terms of defensive impact:

*The best team result with Ewing as anchor is considerably better (like -3.5 better) than the best Hakeem-anchored defense.
YES, he unquestionably had a better defensive supporting cast than Hakeem, but you're also saying Hakeem has a "significant [defensive] lead" on him individually. So how much better was Ewing's cast defensively [to cover that performance gap PLUS the "significant lead"]? -5 better? -6?
Hakeem's supporting cast in his best team year included Vernon Maxwell [good perimeter defender], Robert Horry [good versatile defender], Kenny Smith [fair/capable defender], Mario Elie [fair-to-good defender] ALL ranking in the top 6 in minutes for the Rockets that year. It's possible, but I'm skeptical Ewing's cast was -5 or -6 better than THAT cast.

**Hakeem is consistently ahead of Ewing in APM '94-'96.....but NOT by a massive margin (+2.0 in '94, +1.7 in '95, only +1.0 in '96). I have suggested Hakeem is better than Ewing offensively; you have acknowledged you have Hakeem as "cleanly better on O". How much is "cleanly" better? Surely at least +1, right? If that's the case, then [presumably] the gap defensively cannot be that large (if it exists at all) in these years.
Then we get our first RAPM [NPI, fwiw] in '97 [last prime year for BOTH players, imo], and it shows Ewing cleanly ahead defensively (+3.83 to Hakeem's +1.93).
For that matter if we look at '98 PI RAPM (first year of post-prime for both), Hakeem is +3.32 DRAPM (12th in the league). Ewing is +4.06 (4th in league) [though NPI gives Hakeem a small edge, fwiw]. '99 gives a narrow edge to Hakeem (though curiously shows Ewing being better offensively.....both years Ewing leads in total RAPM).

***Hakeem had team results [in his prime] that were comparable to the Ewing-led results you are "unimpressed" with......and did so with [defensive] supporting casts that are not tremendously lower in quality than Ewing's.


I won't argue that Hakeem doesn't have an edge defensively. But again, I push back against a notion that he holds a "significant lead". I don't feel that is easily defended in the data anyway.
And I can see areas which might explain Ewing's proximity, despite substantially lower steal/block numbers.....
1) To my eye Ewing was a better pnr defender (at least in that '92-'94 [or so] range).
2) Ewing appears a marginally better defensive rebounder (despite consistently boxing out [Hakeem was mostly good boxing out, too]).
3) Ewing wasn't as quick off the ground and often wasn't chasing the ball up for the one-handed tip-block; instead he often [that is: MORE often than Hakeem] opted to protect the rim with verticality. This will result in lower bpg numbers, but is nonetheless still an effective means of lowering the opponent's FG% near the basket.


Regarding being "unimpressed" with Ewing '89-'91, surely you must be at least a little impressed by '90 (and '89 to a lesser degree)? Maybe not defensively, but these were BOTH good offenses [esp '89] for which Ewing was the principle anchor (especially in '90). In '90 he averaged ~29 ppg [in BOTH rs and playoffs] on good to VERY good shooting efficiency.

[eminence]

All things relative - Ewing ranking 30th, Davis 42nd in our most recent top 100. They are both very accomplished players, but I'm lower than that on both (more so Davis).

I've never made a 'Career defensive value' type of list, but I could reasonably see Hakeem in that range, slightly lower on a peak or prime list. I would have him with a fairly significant career lead on Ewing and the two of them more even for peak/prime defensively. Yes I generally rank Hakeem as cleanly better on O than Ewing.

Slight miscommunication - I do not mean to shrug at the Riley results, and I also do not mean to group them with Oakley. I am unimpressed by Ewings defensive work with Oakley from '89-'91. I don't think one can look at that stretch and make a very good case that Ewing was an all-time defender in that period (or earlier). I am impressed by Ewings D once Riley took the reins. I personally have '92-'94 as pretty clearly his peak stretch due to that defensive rise. Perfectly reasonable to have Ewing as the top big in the game in '92 in particular before Hakeem got Rudy and made an offensive step forward.

I am also a bit lower than standard here on Hakeem (6th vs fringe top 10). But mostly don't feel it's a good comp you've put together because Hakeems all-time case is more reliant PO performance than any other top end player. If I were strictly judging players based off regular season play I'd have him closer to fringe top 20 alltime. Ewing doesn't have those same playoff riser arguments, so comparing their RS results only holds a limited amount of value.

My Ewing career assessment in condensed form - I am happy with 'peak' Ewing from '92-'94 (top 5 guy, though a step behind Hakeem/MJ at their best during that same period), but not impressed by his play prior, and he followed a pretty standard aging curve after, lacking elite longevity.

Appreciate the thoughtful reply. Few things.....

Personally, I push back on Hakeem having "a fairly significant career lead on Ewing and.....even more for peak/prime defensively". As per my above post, unless zeroing in block/steals numbers, the data otherwise would not seem to richly support a "significant lead" in terms of defensive impact:

*The best team result with Ewing as anchor is considerably better (like -3.5 better) than the best Hakeem-anchored defense.
YES, he unquestionably had a better defensive supporting cast than Hakeem, but you're also saying Hakeem has a "significant [defensive] lead" on him individually. So how much better was Ewing's cast defensively [to cover that performance gap PLUS the "significant lead"]? -5 better? -6?
Hakeem's supporting cast in his best team year included Vernon Maxwell [good perimeter defender], Robert Horry [good versatile defender], Kenny Smith [fair/capable defender], Mario Elie [fair-to-good defender] ALL ranking in the top 6 in minutes for the Rockets that year. It's possible, but I'm skeptical Ewing's cast was -5 or -6 better than THAT cast.

**Hakeem is consistently ahead of Ewing in APM '94-'96.....but NOT by a massive margin (+2.0 in '94, +1.7 in '95, only +1.0 in '96). I have suggested Hakeem is better than Ewing offensively; you have acknowledged you have Hakeem as "cleanly better on O". How much is "cleanly" better? Surely at least +1, right? If that's the case, then [presumably] the gap defensively cannot be that large (if it exists at all) in these years.
Then we get our first RAPM [NPI, fwiw] in '97 [last prime year for BOTH players, imo], and it shows Ewing cleanly ahead defensively (+3.83 to Hakeem's +1.93).
For that matter if we look at '98 PI RAPM (first year of post-prime for both), Hakeem is +3.32 DRAPM (12th in the league). Ewing is +4.06 (4th in league) [though NPI gives Hakeem a small edge, fwiw]. '99 gives a narrow edge to Hakeem (though curiously shows Ewing being better offensively.....both years Ewing leads in total RAPM).

***Hakeem had team results [in his prime] that were comparable to the Ewing-led results you are "unimpressed" with......and did so with [defensive] supporting casts that are not tremendously lower in quality than Ewing's.


I won't argue that Hakeem doesn't have an edge defensively. But again, I push back against a notion that he holds a "significant lead". I don't feel that is easily defended in the data anyway.
And I can see areas which might explain Ewing's proximity, despite substantially lower steal/block numbers.....
1) To my eye Ewing was a better pnr defender (at least in that '92-'94 [or so] range).
2) Ewing appears a marginally better defensive rebounder (despite consistently boxing out [Hakeem was mostly good boxing out, too]).
3) Ewing wasn't as quick off the ground and often wasn't chasing the ball up for the one-handed tip-block; instead he often [that is: MORE often than Hakeem] opted to protect the rim with verticality. This will result in lower bpg numbers, but is nonetheless still an effective means of lowering the opponent's FG% near the basket.


Regarding being "unimpressed" with Ewing '89-'91, surely you must be at least a little impressed by '90 (and '89 to a lesser degree)? Maybe not defensively, but these were BOTH good offenses [esp '89] for which Ewing was the principle anchor (especially in '90). In '90 he averaged ~29 ppg [in BOTH rs and playoffs] on good to VERY good shooting efficiency.

The first part is a further miscommunication - It's *more even* for peak/prime, not even more. As in they are fairly even for peak/prime defensively imo. I should have worded that better.

I'll come back for the rest and edit in here.