Bird or Garnett?

[SNPA]

Bird is a defensive genius, just like he was on offense. Whenever I watch a Bird game he just keeps showing up in the right place at the right time. Anyone got a stat for that? Because it’s obvious if one watches a few Bird games.

Luckily, people in the PC board have done those things, and unlike you catalogued their findings in a more granular manner than 'Bird is a genius'.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2393479&start=20

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=115401403#p115401403

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2413252&p=118447784&hilit=Bird#p118391388

Spoiler:

Bird is by far the least involved of the Boston Bigs on defense and was not particularly effective in the possessions that he was involved in.

Not impressed. Sufficed to say I’m not abandoning that which I have seen with my eyes over and over for their “review” and “analysis.” I’m too old to be gaslight.

[Top10alltime]

No, that's not really true at all. There are plenty of reasons to pick Bird over Garnett. I don't agree with them, but stop acting like having a different opinion on such a close discussion equals to being stupid.

Ah, such as....

Being cleared in every aspect defensively?
While KG is STILL elite offensive player (top 35), and Bird is fringe top 20 (very reasonable to put him outside).

Lebron, Jordan, Nash, Steph, Magic, Oscar, Jokic, Shaq, Kareem, West, Harden, CP3, Kobe, Luka, KD, Dirk, Chuck, Barry, Wade, SGA, maybe KM, and maayyybee Wilt have cases over Larry Bird offensively.

The gap is not as big as Bird fans make it seem...


So yes, KG clears for peak, prime, career, longevity, impact, and eye-test wise. It isn't close.

I mean, you must be extremely low on Bird's offense if you think guys like Malone have cases over him on that end. It's fine, but I definitely disagree with that and I think the results on the court also disagree.

What results on the court (they don't disagree....) And, I forgot Embiid as well.. swap him out for KM.

[Top10alltime]

Ah, such as....

Being cleared in every aspect defensively?
While KG is STILL elite offensive player (top 35), and Bird is fringe top 20 (very reasonable to put him outside).

Lebron, Jordan, Nash, Steph, Magic, Oscar, Jokic, Shaq, Kareem, West, Harden, CP3, Kobe, Luka, KD, Dirk, Chuck, Barry, Wade, SGA, maybe KM, and maayyybee Wilt have cases over Larry Bird offensively.

The gap is not as big as Bird fans make it seem...


So yes, KG clears for peak, prime, career, longevity, impact, and eye-test wise. It isn't close.

I mean, you must be extremely low on Bird's offense if you think guys like Malone have cases over him on that end. It's fine, but I definitely disagree with that and I think the results on the court also disagree.

More importantly, KG is not top 35 ever on offense alone.

To these 22 names, you gotta add another Malone, IT, Westbrook, D-Will, Kevin Johnson, Kawhi, Reggie Miller, Duncan I guess, Manu, Drexler, Rose, Penny, T-Mac, Giannis, Gervin... and those are only the first that came to mind on my bathroom visit.

Moses no, IT no, Kawhi ehhh, no Duncan or Manu or drexler or Rose. ANd def not Giannis.

[70sFan]

Ah, such as....

Being cleared in every aspect defensively?
While KG is STILL elite offensive player (top 35), and Bird is fringe top 20 (very reasonable to put him outside).

Lebron, Jordan, Nash, Steph, Magic, Oscar, Jokic, Shaq, Kareem, West, Harden, CP3, Kobe, Luka, KD, Dirk, Chuck, Barry, Wade, SGA, maybe KM, and maayyybee Wilt have cases over Larry Bird offensively.

The gap is not as big as Bird fans make it seem...


So yes, KG clears for peak, prime, career, longevity, impact, and eye-test wise. It isn't close.

I mean, you must be extremely low on Bird's offense if you think guys like Malone have cases over him on that end. It's fine, but I definitely disagree with that and I think the results on the court also disagree.

What results on the court (they don't disagree....) And, I forgot Embiid as well.. swap him out for KM.

Huge offensive lifts Bird provided, Celtics offensive results, limited playoff on-off data we have... Everything paints Bird as absolutely elite offensive player. Not GOAT level, but definitely inside top 20.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

I mean, you must be extremely low on Bird's offense if you think guys like Malone have cases over him on that end. It's fine, but I definitely disagree with that and I think the results on the court also disagree.

What results on the court (they don't disagree....) And, I forgot Embiid as well.. swap him out for KM.

Huge offensive lifts Bird provided, Celtics offensive results, limited playoff on-off data we have... Everything paints Bird as absolutely elite offensive player. Not GOAT level, but definitely inside top 20.

When you say lifts are you talking like WOWY? Top 20 is totally fair but alot of people have him like top 5 and I'm sorta doubting that.

[Cavsfansince84]

When you say lifts are you talking like WOWY? Top 20 is totally fair but alot of people have him like top 5 and I'm sorta doubting that.

The other thing is that there's such a big difference between 80-83 Bird and 84-88 when you talk offense. Sometimes when people talk Bird its more 84-88 but if you factor in 80-83(along with those playoffs) his offense doesn't stand out as much.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

When you say lifts are you talking like WOWY? Top 20 is totally fair but alot of people have him like top 5 and I'm sorta doubting that.

The other thing is that there's such a big difference between 80-83 Bird and 84-88 when you talk offense. Sometimes when people talk Bird its more 84-88 but if you factor in 80-83(along with those playoffs) his offense doesn't stand out as much.

Never seen people really praise 80-83 here beyond like the whole rookie year team gets lots better thing

[Cavsfansince84]

Never seen people really praise 80-83 here beyond like the whole rookie year team gets lots better thing

I'm not saying praise 80-83. I'm saying factor it into his averages and whatnot. Whether its included makes a big difference.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Never seen people really praise 80-83 here beyond like the whole rookie year team gets lots better thing

I'm not saying praise 80-83. I'm saying factor it into his averages and whatnot. Whether its included makes a big difference.

I don't think throwing in when Bird is a rookie and not as good is fair.

[Top10alltime]

I mean, you must be extremely low on Bird's offense if you think guys like Malone have cases over him on that end. It's fine, but I definitely disagree with that and I think the results on the court also disagree.

What results on the court (they don't disagree....) And, I forgot Embiid as well.. swap him out for KM.

Huge offensive lifts Bird provided, Celtics offensive results, limited playoff on-off data we have... Everything paints Bird as absolutely elite offensive player. Not GOAT level, but definitely inside top 20.

What huge offensive lifts, and on-off? And he did have strong offensive teammates.

[kcktiny]

Sometimes when people talk Bird its more 84-88 but if you factor in 80-83(along with those playoffs) his offense doesn't stand out as much.

Never seen people really praise 80-83 here beyond like the whole rookie year team gets lots better thing

So neither of you think much of Bird's offense his first 4 years (1979-80 to 1982-83) in the league?

Bird was the ages of 22-25 his first 4 seasons, and in that age range just 2 players since the mid-70s both scored more points and passed for more assists than Bird did, Lebron James and Luka Doncic, and in that age range Bird grabbed more than twice as many offensive rebounds as did either of those two players.

The 5 years of 1983-84 to 1987-88 Bird was the ages of 26-30, and scored more points, passed for more assists, and grabbed more offensive rebounds than James did in that age range. As a matter of fact the only player to both score more points and pass for more assists than Bird did in that age range since the mid-70s is James Harden, yet in that age range Harden grabbed less than half the offensive rebounds Bird did.

Now look at Bird ages 22-30 (1979-80 to 1987-88) - 17,783 pts, 4367 ast, 1567 off rebs. He is the only NBA player since the mid-70s in that age range with 16,000+ points, 3000+ assists, and 1500+ offensive rebounds.

That's what you call a well-rounded player on offense.

[SHAQ32]

PC got this one right!