Better player:2020 LeBron vs 1998 Jordan

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think Jordan was the better of the two. Perhaps you'll agree with me that there's zero chance Jordan wouldn't win a title with the current Lakers roster?

By the time the playoffs are through, Davis may end up looking like the Lakers best player - although I think LeBron was easily better than Davis during the regular season.

all the induvidual data you usually reference stronglydisagrres with you, and lebron is playing much better defense. And he probably isn't even being pushed to play at full titl. what makes you think mj is better?

There are many posts in this thread explaining the differences in era and how that skews the raw numbers. I can't do a better job than them in showing the extreme effects of era.

I'm not sure what individual data you're referring to. My MVP formula has Jordan as the 2nd best player that RS with a score of 22.5. Even prorating James' season to 82 games (giving him credit for 11 games his team never played), he is 3rd in my formula with a 20.3. As for the playoffs, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league, while James has only debatably been the best player on his own team.

Speaking of games played, James has played 83 games (2,878 minutes) this season over a span of nearly 11.5 months. 34 year old Jordan played 103 games (4,055 minutes) in 7.5 months. Jordan played nearly 1,200 more minutes in nearly 4 months less time. That would be significant in comparing any two players, but it's particularly salient when comparing players in their mid-30's. Add to that the posts in this thread about what kind of a load Jordan was carrying while on the court (due to injuries and the abilities of his teammates) versus what LeBron has been required to do (particularly in the playoffs), and you may start to get a sense of why I think Jordan was better.

Those are just three points to be made: my formula (showing their places relative to the league during the regular season), the differences in era (a point made by others), and the differences in their loads (both in terms of their roles on the court and number of minutes played). The last two of these must've had a large effect on their efficiency and impact numbers. I could maybe find more if I searched/thought about it. All of that was just because you asked. The truth is that I made my choice based purely on the eye test, as someone who watched both of them play in equal amounts; in both cases, a lot.

Did you really just pullup and say "my formula" lmao

My formula says zion is the best player in nba history XD

[scrabbarista]

I think 1998 Jordan was closer than he gets credit for in here.
Pippen missed almost half of the season and Rodman was not at his best. Still a 62W season with best SRS and 3rd best NRtg. I find 1998 Jordan's motor better. I'd also say he carried his team harder.
In 1998 playoffs, Jordan posted a considerably higher obpm than James posted in 2020 playoffs so far. (8.0 to 6.8)
Also it's worth noting that the Pacer and the Jazz in 1998 playoffs are by far the most competitive teams both faced / facing.

I also think 2020 James is better, but just slightly. You can feel and see that he has more in him while Jordan had to perform on the edge.

This should be a lot closer than 84%-16% (31-6). I don't think that the gap is that clear.

I think Jordan was the better of the two. Perhaps you'll agree with me that there's zero chance Jordan wouldn't win a title with the current Lakers roster?

By the time the playoffs are through, Davis may end up looking like the Lakers best player - although I think LeBron was easily better than Davis during the regular season.

all the induvidual data you usually reference stronglydisagrres with you, and lebron is playing much better defense. And he probably isn't even being pushed to play at full titl. what makes you think mj is better?

To put the minutes totals I posted into perspective:

It amounts to one 36-minute game every 1.85 days for Jordan. An insane number. (Maybe it's no wonder he decided to retire.)

It amounts to one 36-minute game every 4.125 days for James. Obviously, the layoff skews this number badly, but it gives some perspective on the relative load he's carried this season (also, no travel for the last 22 games).

[Leslie Forman]

Standards or tougher opponents has nothing to do with it, it was just a slower game, allowing players to play longer.

Why are distributions get overlooked to this extent?
MPG distribution is drastically different between 1998 and 2020.

The slow game made the players play for longer? Then how the '80s happened? Pace of late '10s but similar MPG distributions to '90s.

Pace is the wrong term to use. Nobody should use that to describe how today's game is "faster." Intensity is what has gone way up. Players are clearly moving far more and making more intense movements from today's stretched offensive schemes and higher help defense heavy schemes. No different from how the "pace" of baseball obviously isn't any different, but the intensity of throwing has made pitchers lucky to top 200 innings whereas they used to top 300 back in the day.

Anyways, I do wonder what MJ would be doing in a bubble environment like this with an Anthony Davis next to him as well. MJ never had anybody even remotely as offensively talented next to him, and was dealing with the pre-woke culture Utah crowds, traveling, elevation changes.

You think Utah crowds are bad now, lol. Think how bad they must have been back then.

[Pelly24]

I think it's close. MJ could've been more efficient with a more reliable second option scorer, but his team overall was better and he basically had like two all-stars with him even if Scottie was jacked up most of the time. I think Mj could score more and generate buckets more on command than this version of LeBron, but LeBron's defensive versatility and passing and the idea that he could still score like 32 ppg on above 58 TS% or so if he needed to makes me give this one 2k20 Bron. '98 MJ is for sure better than Kawhi, a way better playmaker and more reliable scorer at teh end of the day.

[A_Biased_Fan]

Standards or tougher opponents has nothing to do with it, it was just a slower game, allowing players to play longer.

Why are distributions get overlooked to this extent?
MPG distribution is drastically different between 1998 and 2020.

The slow game made the players play for longer? Then how the '80s happened? Pace of late '10s but similar MPG distributions to '90s.

Pace is the wrong term to use. Nobody should use that to describe how today's game is "faster." Intensity is what has gone way up. Players are clearly moving far more and making more intense movements from today's stretched offensive schemes and higher help defense heavy schemes. No different from how the "pace" of baseball obviously isn't any different, but the intensity of throwing has made pitchers lucky to top 200 innings whereas they used to top 300 back in the day.

Anyways, I do wonder what MJ would be doing in a bubble environment like this with an Anthony Davis next to him as well. MJ never had anybody even remotely as offensively talented next to him, and was dealing with the pre-woke culture Utah crowds, traveling, elevation changes.

You think Utah crowds are bad now, lol. Think how bad they must have been back then.

Yeah but could you imagine Lebron relentlessly hunting Stockton and Horny. And Utah couldn't go into zone like Miami is trying to do now to hid their defensive liabilities. Lebron would be cooking and get his for sure.

[A_Biased_Fan]

I think it's close. MJ could've been more efficient with a more reliable second option scorer, but his team overall was better and he basically had like two all-stars with him even if Scottie was jacked up most of the time. I think Mj could score more and generate buckets more on command than this version of LeBron, but LeBron's defensive versatility and passing and the idea that he could still score like 32 ppg on above 58 TS% or so if he needed to makes me give this one 2k20 Bron. '98 MJ is for sure better than Kawhi, a way better playmaker and more reliable scorer at teh end of the day.

One other overlooked guy. Kukoc. He'd be the Lakers clear third scorer and everything Kuzma should be on offense right now. That's a guy I could see thriving next to Lebron.

[Leslie Forman]

Yeah but could you imagine Lebron relentlessly hunting Stockton and Horny. And Utah couldn't go into zone like Miami is trying to do now to hid their defensive liabilities. Lebron would be cooking and get his for sure.

Sure. But it goes the other way too.

Imagine MJ against goddamn Duncan Robinson or Tyler Herro.

[KobesScarf]

They are dead even

[A_Biased_Fan]

Yeah but could you imagine Lebron relentlessly hunting Stockton and Horny. And Utah couldn't go into zone like Miami is trying to do now to hid their defensive liabilities. Lebron would be cooking and get his for sure.

Sure. But it goes the other way too.

Imagine MJ against goddamn Duncan Robinson or Tyler Herro.

Ok so they both faced guys they could roast and they'd both be dominant in those series.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think it could be argued either way. I mean MJ played more games and had less help in the playoffs while LeBron is quarterbacking his team and putting up pretty amazing playoff numbers. I think its close enough that one isn't a clear choice.

[DQuinn1575]

This is laughable the margin in voting here. There have been many games this post season, including the last one, where LeBron was not the best player on the court. If you have player of year I think it’s a 3 way race between LeBron, runaway mvp Giannis and AD. In 98 Jordan was best player on court in every playoff game, except probably one, and was without serious debate the best player in the league. MJ carried this team to a title, beating a Utah team with two of the top 25 players of all-time. LeBron is winning with

[Top10alltime]

2020 Lebron should be compared to 1989-91 Jordan (peak Jordan) rather than a weak prime year for Jordan imo.

2011 Lebron is comparable to 1998 Jordan though.