Overlooked Defensive Power Forwards

[AStark1991]

Shawn Kemp
Rasheed Wallace
Kenyon Martin
Jermaine O'Neal
Aaron Gordon

Those are five Power Forwards that I've always viewed as being overlooked and underrated on the defensive end of the floor. With all in their respective primes, how would you rank them in terms of individual defensive impact?

[Djoker]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

Shawn Kemp - very good defender. Good leaper, quick feet, tough guy to beat for most opposing PF's. A little overzealous in terms of helping and not always making great reads.

Rasheed Wallace - elite defender. A total beast on defense. He should (would) have a bunch of selections if not for some insane competition at his position. He's definitely a top 5/10 defender in the league kind of guy for probably close to a decade.

Kenyon Martin - very good defender but undersized. Better awareness than Kemp but still a bit reckless at times.

Jermaine O'Neal - borderline elite defender for a few years with Indy. He was a big reason for why they were so good in 2003 and 2004. Flew under the radar then and now is never mentioned. Definitely could have made some all D teams.

Aaron Gordon - very good defender. Less undersized than Kenyon so he gets an edge over him.

If I had to rank them:

Rasheed > Jermaine > Kemp > Gordon > Martin

The top 2 is very clear to me with Sheed 1 JO 2. Kemp/Gordon/Martin can probably be shuffled any which way. These three guys were good defenders but never top in the league material IMO.

[AStark1991]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

Shawn Kemp - very good defender. Good leaper, quick feet, tough guy to beat for most opposing PF's. A little overzealous in terms of helping and not always making great reads.

Rasheed Wallace - elite defender. A total beast on defense. He should (would) have a bunch of selections if not for some insane competition at his position. He's definitely a top 5/10 defender in the league kind of guy for probably close to a decade.

Kenyon Martin - very good defender but undersized. Better awareness than Kemp but still a bit reckless at times.

Jermaine O'Neal - borderline elite defender for a few years with Indy. He was a big reason for why they were so good in 2003 and 2004. Flew under the radar then and now is never mentioned. Definitely could have made some all D teams.

Aaron Gordon - very good defender. Less undersized than Kenyon so he gets an edge over him.

If I had to rank them:

Rasheed > Jermaine > Kemp > Gordon > Martin

The top 2 is very clear to me with Sheed 1 JO 2. Kemp/Gordon/Martin can probably be shuffled any which way. These three guys were good defenders but never top in the league material IMO.

Admittedly I'm biased being a lifelong Seattle area resident and former Sonic season ticket holder, but I honestly think The Reign Man was on equal footing with Rasheed and Jermaine when strictly talking about defense. At his peak (1995-96) Kemp was 2nd in the league in defensive rating, 4th in defensive win shares, and 3rd in total rebounds. Additionally, after he left Seattle, the team dropped from 6th to 10th in overall collective defensive rating while Cleveland instantly became the #1 rated defensive unit in the league during his first season with the Cavs. Gary Payton seems to receive most (if not all) of the credit for why those Seattle teams were so great on defense, but I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was. I think the trio of Kemp, Rasheed, and Jermaine are pretty interchangeable when ranking their respective defensive impacts. Of the three, Kemp was the best rebounder as well as being the most athletic and switchable, Rasheed was the best man-to-man post defender, and Jermaine was the best shot blocker/rim protector. Martin and Gordon were good as well, but I completely agree about them being the bottom two. I view both of them as being very athletic and versatile defenders but not really elite at any particular aspect. Classic cases of being good at everything but great at nothing.

[trex_8063]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

I thought for sure you were mistaken about O'Neal, but looked up and saw it's true. Crazy.

To answer OP, I definitely have Sheed and Jermaine at the top (perhaps comfortably), not sure which one higher (gun to my head, maybe Sheed??).

After that, I'm not sure.

[Owly]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

Shawn Kemp - very good defender. Good leaper, quick feet, tough guy to beat for most opposing PF's. A little overzealous in terms of helping and not always making great reads.

Rasheed Wallace - elite defender. A total beast on defense. He should (would) have a bunch of selections if not for some insane competition at his position. He's definitely a top 5/10 defender in the league kind of guy for probably close to a decade.

Kenyon Martin - very good defender but undersized. Better awareness than Kemp but still a bit reckless at times.

Jermaine O'Neal - borderline elite defender for a few years with Indy. He was a big reason for why they were so good in 2003 and 2004. Flew under the radar then and now is never mentioned. Definitely could have made some all D teams.

Aaron Gordon - very good defender. Less undersized than Kenyon so he gets an edge over him.

If I had to rank them:

Rasheed > Jermaine > Kemp > Gordon > Martin

The top 2 is very clear to me with Sheed 1 JO 2. Kemp/Gordon/Martin can probably be shuffled any which way. These three guys were good defenders but never top in the league material IMO.

Admittedly I'm biased being a lifelong Seattle area resident and former Sonic season ticket holder, but I honestly think The Reign Man was on equal footing with Rasheed and Jermaine when strictly talking about defense. At his peak (1995-96) Kemp was 2nd in the league in defensive rating, 4th in defensive win shares, and 3rd in total rebounds. Additionally, after he left Seattle, the team dropped from 6th to 10th in overall collective defensive rating while Cleveland instantly became the #1 rated defensive unit in the league during his first season with the Cavs. Gary Payton seems to receive most (if not all) of the credit for why those Seattle teams were so great on defense, but I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was. I think the trio of Kemp, Rasheed, and Jermaine are pretty interchangeable when ranking their respective defensive impacts. Of the three, Kemp was the best rebounder as well as being the most athletic and switchable, Rasheed was the best man-to-man post defender, and Jermaine was the best shot blocker/rim protector. Martin and Gordon were great as well, but I completely agree about them being the bottom two. I view both of them as being very athletic and versatile defenders but not really elite at any particular aspect. Classic cases of being good at everything but great at nothing.

At the margin I’d argue if you’re going to come pretty hard claims in favor of one particular guy

I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was

… after one response … it might have made more sense to just make that case up front. That might just be me though.

My gut level, not consulting the data instinct would be broadly in line with the first response. Rasheed and O’Neal as the top tier, then the rest with K-Mart maybe lower than the other two. But to do this properly I’d want to look properly at data and tightly define the question etc.

On Kemp and the case for Kemp.
DWS and Reference Drtg are just are you on a good defensive team and are you defensively productive. That Kemp was those things isn’t in question.

The questions or doubts might be about his defensive IQ, the cost of his fouls direclty, the cost of his foul trouble (putting teams into the bonus and the way fouls limited his minutes) and how better defensive metrics (such as the impact family) would look upon him (though overlap with his defensive apex and play-by-play era is probably fairly limited).

On the quote noted above and below

I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was

… it just isn’t. Not that it’s not a good indicator that he was a good defender. Nor that that is precluded. But it’s nothing like a like-for-like controlled comparison. It might be the case that keeping Kemp and trading Payton for Baker-level defense equivalent would have seen Seattle’s defense drop to 29th … or maybe they improve … but irrefutable proof is a very high bar and you really aren’t doing anything to establish Payton’s impact at that time, even if Kemp’s impact were made clear by those team performance changes.

Moving beyond the somewhat overreaching claim, we can look at the Cavaliers and Sonics movements as a positive for Kemp but look closer to see how it fits with him being a primary driver versus him being a piece in a good defense. On the Cavs they aren’t noticeably different with him on or off and indeed for the core rotation there aren’t too many huge shifts – Person, Sura and Ferry look weaker; Potapenko and Anderson look stronger.

The area of greatest strength – at least in terms of rank - is turnover generation, as it had been a year earlier. This might push some credit towards Knight (and whilst he gives some stuff up in other areas, his long-term impact profile, iirc did suggest him as a strong defender) and/or Fratello as the major source of continuity.

Kemp being part of good and very good defenses speaks well to his performance but this doesn’t seem to be evidence toward a clear case of him driving it. Similarly, glancing at Seattle 1994-1997 I don’t think he was ever first or second on the team in on-off (McMillan-Pierce; McMillan-Perkins; Perkins-Payton; Payton-Schrempf (Schrempf narrowly ahead of McMillan). Those are net so include offense as well and are noisy but him never being a clear on-off leader suggests either other players as greater drivers and/or an ensemble more than supporting Kemp.

On Seattle too I think the idea of Payton as a singular driver is probably less popular here than elsewhere. There’s an awareness that through the mid-90s – on limited (+/- derived) data, McMillan might look the strongest Supersonic defensively. I’d also suspect Karl deserves a chunk of the credit given he tended to improve teams (two significant in-season changes of fortune for Seattle and Denver).

On the Seattle departure side I’d be as reticent to credit Kemp’s loss for the defensive fall as I would to credit Baker as an offensive upgrade on him for the offensive … ahem … boom (too strong a term, but used for the pun ….).

Mostly at the out rungs defensive players McIlvaine, McMillan, Wingate, Ehlo, Snow (and maybe role-player version Cummings and Larry Stewart as hustle players) see their minutes down or are departed in 1998.

Whilst I’d consider Greg Anthony a defensive addition, the largest minutes incomer is Dale Ellis. Very much an offensively slanted player.

Of course it depends where one comes out on the other players in the comparison too.

And this isn't an anti-Kemp post. In concert with his offensive production I think he was a very good player who was an important part of good teams and whose production held up well in the playoffs (perhaps marginally helped by his longest runs being in his prime, but I think it's also accurate without that caveat). It's just at first glance my impression is he isn't up there with a couple of the other cited players as a defender.

[TroubleS0me]

Josh Smith
Lamar Odom

[LA Bird]

Sheed doesn't really belong in this grouping. His defensive +/- numbers were straight up DPOY level (even better than Garnett's before 03 actually). Gordon also seems a bit out of place because he is playing in a completely different era. If he was in the late 90s or early 00s, he would likely be considered undersized just like KMart and Marion. For the current league though, he is totally fine. And depending on how low you are on Jokic's defense, you could make the argument Gordon is more important to his team defensively than others who may be better in a vacuum.

Kemp, JO, KMart all played on some elite defenses which don't get talked about much now. But what is also overlooked is that those team defenses were still very good even with them on the bench. For example, this is 2 player WOWY spanning most of JO's prime (02-06):

Without Artest
O'Neal ON: 103.0 DRtg, +0.1 net
O'Neal OFF: 103.2 DRtg, -0.9 net

With Artest
O'Neal ON: 98.8 DRtg, +7.2 net
O'Neal OFF: 95.6 DRtg, +7.2 net

Pacers defense saw no dropoff with JO in both cases. And they were still only around league average defense mid 2002 until Artest got traded there. KMart's track record is similar. Before Kidd (and Jason Collins) arrived, the Nets were +2.5 on defense with KMart having a negative individual on/off. Then he is basically irrelevant after 3 years once he left for Denver while the Nets remained a strong defense without him. Kemp had pretty mediocre on/off numbers in Seattle too (94~97: +2.5, -4.3, +3.5, +0.9). But at least he was on top defenses in two separate situations and he saw the largest minute increase in 93 when the Sonics went from 15th to 2nd on defense. The 98 Cavs defensive improvement is also understated because of historically outlier pace in previous seasons which could skew ORtg/DRtg splits by 3~4 points (see this thread). But FWIW, that defense only lasted one year anyway and came with other additions (Brevin Knight, Ilgauskas).

I would say Sheed is first and then Kemp, JO, Gordon, KMart in that order. But it's close enough you could bump them up or down one spot.

[trex_8063]

Additionally, after he left Seattle, the team dropped from 6th to 10th in overall collective defensive rating while Cleveland instantly became the #1 rated defensive unit in the league during his first season with the Cavs. Gary Payton seems to receive most (if not all) of the credit for why those Seattle teams were so great on defense, but I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was.

I don't necessarily disagree that he was as important for the Seattle defense as Payton was [at least SOME years], though I'm also of the opinion that Gary Payton is overrated defensively [thru his late prime, at least], whilst simultaneously being UNDERrated offensively.


That said, the evidence-to-conclusion line you've drawn here seems rather myopic.

It's true that Seattle's defense got worse by +2.6 rDRTG after Kemp left. However, Kemp's minutes were primarily replaced by Vin Baker [a bad defensive PF/C]. I would expect even replacing the minutes of an AVERAGE defensive PF with Vin Baker for an entire season is likely to worsen your defense by at least +1.
They also got 519 fewer minutes from Nate McMillan in '98 compared to '97, fwiw, and Sam Perkins [decent defender] was another year older.

Cleveland improved by less substantial -1.6 rDRTG when Kemp arrived.
However, here too he was not the only change.....
In '97 the starting PG was Terrell Brandon, a kinda weak defensive PG. In '98, his minutes were replaced by a rookie Brevin Knight, a pesky steal machine who would get one vote for DPOY in '98 and had the 5th-highest number of All-D Team vote pts among guards (i.e. he was the highest regarded among all guards who did NOT actually make an All-D Team).
Bobby Phills [decent defender] was gone in '98, but he was replaced by Wesley Person (roughly equivalent defender, imo, who was also healthy for all 82 games [which is about 20 more than Phills was around for in '97]).

So there again there were additional moving parts besides just Kemp.

[Owly]

Additionally, after he left Seattle, the team dropped from 6th to 10th in overall collective defensive rating while Cleveland instantly became the #1 rated defensive unit in the league during his first season with the Cavs. Gary Payton seems to receive most (if not all) of the credit for why those Seattle teams were so great on defense, but I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was.

I don't necessarily disagree that he was as important for the Seattle defense as Payton was [at least SOME years], though I'm also of the opinion that Gary Payton is overrated defensively [thru his late prime, at least], whilst simultaneously being UNDERrated offensively.


That said, the evidence-to-conclusion line you've drawn here seems rather myopic.

It's true that Seattle's defense got worse by +2.6 rDRTG after Kemp left. However, Kemp's minutes were primarily replaced by Vin Baker [a bad defensive PF/C]. I would expect even replacing the minutes of an AVERAGE defensive PF with Vin Baker for an entire season is likely to worsen your defense by at least +1.
They also got 519 fewer minutes from Nate McMillan in '98 compared to '97, fwiw, and Sam Perkins [decent defender] was another year older.

Cleveland improved by less substantial -1.6 rDRTG when Kemp arrived.
However, here too he was not the only change.....
In '97 the starting PG was Terrell Brandon, a kinda weak defensive PG. In '98, his minutes were replaced by a rookie Brevin Knight, a pesky steal machine who would get one vote for DPOY in '98 and had the 5th-highest number of All-D Team vote pts among guards (i.e. he was the highest regarded among all guards who did NOT actually make an All-D Team).
Bobby Phills [decent defender] was gone in '98, but he was replaced by Wesley Person (roughly equivalent defender, imo, who was also healthy for all 82 games [which is about 20 more than Phills was around for in '97]).

So there again there were additional moving parts besides just Kemp.

Agree with much of the gist, indeed some of the other player turnover stuff similar to that in my post above.

I think I'd push back on Person and Phills as defensive equals. Phills made the NBA ... if not as an a outright defensive specialist then with D as his greatest strength. I think people liked his body, strength for on D and glancing at on-off for '97 and general recall of impact measures (very otoh) is supportive of solid defense. For Person, conversely my impression is D as a mild weakness and the '98 defensive on-off ... limited though that is ... doesn't help in that regard - and may have more mileage as applied to the particular season.

Regardless, significant turnover makes allocation of "arrival" impact really difficult and frankly imprecise/noisy.

[trex_8063]

Additionally, after he left Seattle, the team dropped from 6th to 10th in overall collective defensive rating while Cleveland instantly became the #1 rated defensive unit in the league during his first season with the Cavs. Gary Payton seems to receive most (if not all) of the credit for why those Seattle teams were so great on defense, but I think the fact that they got worse defensively after Kemp left and Cleveland immediately became the top rated defense upon his arrival is irrefutable proof that he was just as essential to Seattle's defensive success as Payton was.

I don't necessarily disagree that he was as important for the Seattle defense as Payton was [at least SOME years], though I'm also of the opinion that Gary Payton is overrated defensively [thru his late prime, at least], whilst simultaneously being UNDERrated offensively.


That said, the evidence-to-conclusion line you've drawn here seems rather myopic.

It's true that Seattle's defense got worse by +2.6 rDRTG after Kemp left. However, Kemp's minutes were primarily replaced by Vin Baker [a bad defensive PF/C]. I would expect even replacing the minutes of an AVERAGE defensive PF with Vin Baker for an entire season is likely to worsen your defense by at least +1.
They also got 519 fewer minutes from Nate McMillan in '98 compared to '97, fwiw, and Sam Perkins [decent defender] was another year older.

Cleveland improved by less substantial -1.6 rDRTG when Kemp arrived.
However, here too he was not the only change.....
In '97 the starting PG was Terrell Brandon, a kinda weak defensive PG. In '98, his minutes were replaced by a rookie Brevin Knight, a pesky steal machine who would get one vote for DPOY in '98 and had the 5th-highest number of All-D Team vote pts among guards (i.e. he was the highest regarded among all guards who did NOT actually make an All-D Team).
Bobby Phills [decent defender] was gone in '98, but he was replaced by Wesley Person (roughly equivalent defender, imo, who was also healthy for all 82 games [which is about 20 more than Phills was around for in '97]).

So there again there were additional moving parts besides just Kemp.

Agree with much of the gist, indeed some of the other player turnover stuff similar to that in my post above.

I think I'd push back on Person and Phills as defensive equals. Phills made the NBA ... if not as an a outright defensive specialist then with D as his greatest strength. I think people liked his body, strength for on D and glancing at on-off for '97 and general recall of impact measures (very otoh) is supportive of solid defense. For Person, conversely my impression is D as a mild weakness and the '98 defensive on-off ... limited though that is ... doesn't help in that regard - and may have more mileage as applied to the particular season.

Regardless, significant turnover makes allocation of "arrival" impact really difficult and frankly imprecise/noisy.

You may be right about Wesley vs Phills on D, though it's at least not a big difference [especially considering availability]:

Person was a +1.05 DRAPM in '98, though admittedly only +0.25 in '97 [NPI], -0.56 in '99, and -1.13 in '00.
For comparison, Bobby Phills was a +1.70 DRAPM in '97 [NPI], +0.66 DRAPM in '98, +0.67 in '99, +0.87 in '00.

So Phills looks to have a small advantage, though Person looks strong by this metric in '98, and was available for 3198 minutes that year (compared to 2375 for Phills in '97).

As an aside, the aforementioned Brevin Knight was +2.09 DRAPM in '98, +1.75 in '99, and +1.71 in '00. Solid, pesky defensive PG, as previously mentioned. MAJOR improvement [on that end] over Terrell Brandon.

[cupcakesnake]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

I thought for sure you were mistaken about O'Neal, but looked up and saw it's true. Crazy.

To answer OP, I definitely have Sheed and Jermaine at the top (perhaps comfortably), not sure which one higher (gun to my head, maybe Sheed??).

After that, I'm not sure.

Early 2000s were a tough time to make all-defense for power forwards. Tim Duncan and KG were written in pen, power forwards were never eligible at center, and the media was oddly committed to Bruce Bowen being one of the most high-decorated defenders ever. Metta World Peace, Tayshaun Prince, and Kirilenko made a glut of of teams. After that everyone else got forgotten. JO, Sheed, Marion, Martin... never got a serious look.

I'd go Sheed over Jermaine, mostly because Jermain's prime and later career were so injury riddled. Jermaine was probably better in drop, and as a pure basket protector, but Sheed had more versatility. He had better mobility and defensive focus, imo.

J.O'Neal was definitely a center, stylistically, on both offense and defense, but because he faced the basket sometimes they called him a power forward. He started his Indiana run playing next to Al Harrington or Austin Croshere, but then they put him next to Brad Miller. A couple seasons later it was Jeff Foster, who was that big-bodied rebounding specialist archetype that no longer exists in the NBA (though has recently returned on the offensive side of the ball with Mitch Robinson and Steven Adams.)

Another guy who belongs on this list is Marion. Marion played some 3 too, but his prime came as a power forward. He's underappreciated for all how he covered up the defensive holes that are Amar'e and Steve Nash. 5-positional defender who was disruptive in passing lanes, and a strong secondary rim protector.

[Bonifan]

That's a good list because no one on there ever made an All-Defensive team.

I thought for sure you were mistaken about O'Neal, but looked up and saw it's true. Crazy.

To answer OP, I definitely have Sheed and Jermaine at the top (perhaps comfortably), not sure which one higher (gun to my head, maybe Sheed??).

After that, I'm not sure.

Early 2000s were a tough time to make all-defense for power forwards. Tim Duncan and KG were written in pen, power forwards were never eligible at center, and the media was oddly committed to Bruce Bowen being one of the most high-decorated defenders ever. Metta World Peace, Tayshaun Prince, and Kirilenko made a glut of of teams. After that everyone else got forgotten. JO, Sheed, Marion, Martin... never got a serious look.

I'd go Sheed over Jermaine, mostly because Jermain's prime and later career were so injury riddled. Jermaine was probably better in drop, and as a pure basket protector, but Sheed had more versatility. He had better mobility and defensive focus, imo.

J.O'Neal was definitely a center, stylistically, on both offense and defense, but because he faced the basket sometimes they called him a power forward. He started his Indiana run playing next to Al Harrington or Austin Croshere, but then they put him next to Brad Miller. A couple seasons later it was Jeff Foster, who was that big-bodied rebounding specialist archetype that no longer exists in the NBA (though has recently returned on the offensive side of the ball with Mitch Robinson and Steven Adams.)

Another guy who belongs on this list is Marion. Marion played some 3 too, but his prime came as a power forward. He's underappreciated for all how he covered up the defensive holes that are Amar'e and Steve Nash. 5-positional defender who was disruptive in passing lanes, and a strong secondary rim protector.

Totally agree