Chris Bosh or David West?

[2poor]

I wasn't all that interested in rehashing this whole thing, I just found it funny that some Raptors homer goes around bumping threads and making assertions without actually doing any research.

A quick trip to NBA.com would've quickly showed said homer that

a.) West is putting up nearly identical numbers over this same stretch
b.) the team as a whole is doing considerably better
c.) the Hornets are a 1/2 game out of the top seed in the WC

So, gush over your guy all you want but at least take the time to realize that the other player involved (West in this case), isn't doing too shabby either. Otherwise, you just look like the stereotypical "Raptors homer" that most people around this board have grown sick of, and from the looks of it, some of your own are sick of it too.

[yunggunz]

-= original quote snipped =-



I guess whoever did the votes for last year's MVP thought more of Bosh than you do my brother, because he finished 7th overall. West is a borderline all-star guy, probably will get in once or twice in the future, Bosh is a perennial all-star, the leader of our team, the franchise player. He's to us what Chris Paul is to New Orleans. Bud, Bosh at his best is definitely a MVP candidate, maybe not top 2-3, he's no Duncan, Kobe or LeBron, but he's in the group right below them and that group is way ahead of David West's group.

And it is close thread, I don't think there's any debate that Chris Bosh is better, I think the only question was how far off West is and in some people's minds, he isn't that far off, which is reasonable. But it's evidently and painfully clear to anyone who has watched these two guys play over the last 5 seasons that Bosh is in another league.

David West doesn't do ANY ONE thing better than Bosh. Not one. While Chris is the better scorer, more of an inside presence, better outside shooter, better rebounder, and a legit number one option.

A) I never said I would choose West over Bosh, Im just pointing out some fallacies in arguments.

B) 7th in MVP voting doesnt make someone a legitimate MVP candidate. Especially when he didnt receive a single 1st or 2nd place vote. Thats like calling Dennis Kucinic a legitimate presidential candidate.

C) ok......bosh is your Chris Paul. But Paul is a PG and the Hornets are way better, so its like comparing apples and oranges.

D) I would not say that Bosh is a better rebounder. Toronto isnt a great rebounding team, and who is going to rebound in toronto? Moon? The reality is that Bosh should probably be doing a lot better job ont he boards. West is pulling in more rebounds next to Tyson Chandler. IMHO, thats much more impressive. I would also say that West is a slightly better defender and shooter than Bosh.

E) I would still take Bosh because he is younger and the focal point of opposing defenses, but I am just pointing out a lot of errors in the arguments of Raps fans.

[Kosta]

I don't care how old he is, he's certainly not a better defender, West is a much better man defender, and they are about the same as help defenders.

West can establish post position easier, and has a more refined game with his back to the basket.

This is Bosh easily, but to say West doesn't do one thing better is just false, the thing that makes it so easily Bosh is his ability to face up and drive and draw fouls.

Edit: and lets not pretend west hasn't been constantly improving, his scoring and rebounding numbers are increasing every year, and he's gone from a non-existent shot-blocker, to a decent one.

Let me rephrase, IMO, West doesn't clearly do one thing better than Bosh, defensively if he's better like you say, it's probably only marginally. Get the numbers for points scored in the paint for both these guys, I'm going to say if it's not in Bosh's favor, West is only marginally better. Bosh is clearly the better scorer, clearly better at getting to the line, in years prior, rebounding numbers down this season, was clearly the better rebounder. Bosh is the focus of the defense and has to be a playmaker out of doubles, something West probably doesn't experience very often.

The areas Bosh excels in are huge advantages over West, the one area that you pointed out West is better in is his man defense, and that's probably as I said slim at best.

I like West, he's great value for the cash N.O is paying him over the next 4+ seasons, he's a borderline all-star guy who is playing as a solid number two guy next to Paul. All I'm saying is that he's no Chris Bosh.

I said earlier in this thread, you put Chris Bosh in New Orleans, how damn good are they? You put West in Toronto as the number one guy, are we even a playoff team? I don't know.

[NO-KG-AI]

Agreed on all points, though I'd like to see West's rebounding numbers playing next to Rasho and Bargs instead of Tyson Chandler.

[Kosta]

A) I never said I would choose West over Bosh, Im just pointing out some fallacies in arguments.

B) 7th in MVP voting doesnt make someone a legitimate MVP candidate. Especially when he didnt receive a single 1st or 2nd place vote. Thats like calling Dennis Kucinic a legitimate presidential candidate.

C) ok......bosh is your Chris Paul. But Paul is a PG and the Hornets are way better, so its like comparing apples and oranges.

D) I would not say that Bosh is a better rebounder. Toronto isnt a great rebounding team, and who is going to rebound in toronto? Moon? The reality is that Bosh should probably be doing a lot better job ont he boards. West is pulling in more rebounds next to Tyson Chandler. IMHO, thats much more impressive. I would also say that West is a slightly better defender and shooter than Bosh.

E) I would still take Bosh because he is younger and the focal point of opposing defenses, but I am just pointing out a lot of errors in the arguments of Raps fans.

A.) No problem.

B.) Yes, it does. He got votes, which means voters believed he was deserving to an extent, he didn't get any 1st and 2nd place votes, just means he wasn't as deserving as the other 6 guys on the list.

C.) True, but it's early in the season, don't you think? The Raptors did have the better record last season. And I'm aware N.O had injuries, to an extent we have as well this season.

D.)How many boards was West pulling down before Chandler got there? 7.4 boards in 34 minutes. So as that is a valid point, West was never a good rebounder before Chandler's arrival to N.O. Just because we suck at rebounding, shouldn't count against CB4, if anything he has to fight all by his damn self just to grab a board.

E.)No problem again. Your opinion is as valid as mine or anyone else's on here.

[Kosta]

Agreed on all points, though I'd like to see West's rebounding numbers playing next to Rasho and Bargs instead of Tyson Chandler.

That's a rarity.

[yunggunz]

B.) Yes, it does. He got votes, which means voters believed he was deserving to an extent, he didn't get any 1st and 2nd place votes, just means he wasn't as deserving as the other 6 guys on the list.

Yeah, well just like Kucinic he is a "candidate" in the most literal sense. However, just like Kucinic, there is a lack of legitimacy in his candidacy.

[Kosta]

If that's the case there is only really 2, maybe 3 legitimate MVP candidates every season, because usually the top 2 guys get the majority of the 1 and 2 votes. According to those votes, Bosh was the 7th most valuable player to his team in the league last season. That has to mean something.

[yunggunz]

If that's the case there is only really 2, maybe 3 legitimate MVP candidates every season.

Exactly.

[Kosta]

-= original quote snipped =-



Exactly.

So Dirk, Nash and Duncan? What about Kobe and LeBron? Those were the top 5 guys last season I believe. Are not all 5 of those guys legit MVP candidates?

[CreaM]

Bosh 10 times out of 10.

[cb4_89]

West has been a beast lately. I really like him as a player.

Anyway. As I said Boshs field goal % will be going up.

Hes at 47.7% right now. Thats 48%. He should finish off at around 50% shooting as he usually does.

[Canomad]

bosh.


however west is one helluva player and i wouldnt mind having him on my cavs.

[tsherkin]

B) 7th in MVP voting doesnt make someone a legitimate MVP candidate. Especially when he didnt receive a single 1st or 2nd place vote. Thats like calling Dennis Kucinic a legitimate presidential candidate.

Actually that's a fallacious argument because Kucinic is quite definitively a legitimate candidate, he's simply not to be expected to win. His candidacy stems from being in the race at all, not from his prospects of victory.

C) ok......bosh is your Chris Paul. But Paul is a PG and the Hornets are way better, so its like comparing apples and oranges.

The Hornets also have Tyson Chandler. I don't mean to knock Paul at all, he's a wonderful player and damned well better be an All-Star this year, I just mean that the Hornets and Raptors can't possibly be compared. I think I am actually agreeing with you here.

D) I would not say that Bosh is a better rebounder. Toronto isnt a great rebounding team, and who is going to rebound in toronto? Moon? The reality is that Bosh should probably be doing a lot better job ont he boards. West is pulling in more rebounds next to Tyson Chandler. IMHO, thats much more impressive. I would also say that West is a slightly better defender and shooter than Bosh.

I would; he started the season dealing with the lingering effects of a left foot injury and then a swollen knee; the two are averaging a like number of rebounds but Bosh has been playing below full health and has a marginally better rebound rate even still. Even at full health, I wouldn't call him dramatically superior but it's still worth noting.

As far as caliber of rebounding team, well, you win; the Raptors are 23rd in the league in team rebounding rate. The Hornets are 12th.

E) I would still take Bosh because he is younger and the focal point of opposing defenses, but I am just pointing out a lot of errors in the arguments of Raps fans.

As I said before, these guys are reasonably close until you consider offense and then Bosh's dramatic superiority at drawing fouls is what separates the two of them in Bosh's favor.

[Windmill]

^ tsherkin, this is completely off-topic but since you really don't post on the Raptors board I thought I would ask you this here.

What is your stance on Bargnani? How would you explain his shortcomings this season and do you see him getting more comfortable as the season wears on? Did you think that it was a good pick that Colangelo made at that time? If not, who were you rooting for or who would you have picked?

Thanks.

[tsherkin]

^ tsherkin, this is completely off-topic but since you really don't post on the Raptors board I thought I would ask you this here.

If it wasn't almost as bad as the Knicks forum, I'd post there more often.

What is your stance on Bargnani? How would you explain his shortcomings this season and do you see him getting more comfortable as the season wears on? Did you think that it was a good pick that Colangelo made at that time? If not, who were you rooting for or who would you have picked?

Thanks.

I think Bargnani is a waste of skin. I was vehemently against his selection before the draft even though it seemed inevitable and I remain against it now. He's better than I thought he would be and I think this year is not a clear indicator of what he can be, though.

I think that peak Bargnani has Keith Van Horn potential, like 20/7, 20/8 type player at his best, but that's exactly the WRONG kind of guy we should have been chasing, and this is only made more true by the acquisition of Kapono. With Pono, Parker, Calderon and Delfino, we have a metric crapload of outside shooting and Bargs just makes us worse on the glass and denies us legitimate interior offense.

I would have much preferred, as I said on the RealGM Draft Day streaming podcast, to have drafted Aldridge. He's not a great rebounder but he's a LOT better than Bargs and he's more capable of interior offense.

As far as WHY? Tough call; I'm sure Sam Mitchell's "no coaching" for a month didn't help and earlier in the season, an injury-addled Bosh was making things more difficult for Bargs, as was our weak offensive execution. Our ball movement wasn't fantastic early on if you recall, we didn't pass as well as we had the year before and it showed. Bargs doesn't do a stunning amount of creating his own shot, so that hurt him.

He's still basically useless from beneath the arc, that hasn't much changed. IMO, he really hasn't changed THAT much... he's playing fewer minutes and getting fewer touches on account of his struggles which explains the dip in some of his raw averages but really, he's just been utterly ineffectual beneath the arc this year. Part of that is that we were trying to post him a lot earlier in the year and that was just stupid.

I figure he'll get back to something approaching last year eventually, I mean the ball movement is changing and when he's on the floor, he's getting basically the same shots as he did last year, shots we know he can make. With Bosh healthy, he's got someone drawing attention and opening things up for the perimeter guys, just like Parker said the other night. Oh yeah and Ford being out certainly hasn't helped his case, because TJ is one of the three guys on the team that regularly creates shots for others.

[RobertGlory]

i want to see bosh and west's compared late game pressure numbers

west has come up big for us an awful lot at the end of games, with numerous game-winning and buzzer-beating shots in the last three seasons. i wonder if bosh has had the same impact in those situations

[Fairview4Life]

i want to see bosh and west's compared late game pressure numbers

west has come up big for us an awful lot at the end of games, with numerous game-winning and buzzer-beating shots in the last three seasons. i wonder if bosh has had the same impact in those situations

Bosh has taken over on both ends in the 4th quarter for the Raptors several times this year.

[Hendrix]

i want to see bosh and west's compared late game pressure numbers

west has come up big for us an awful lot at the end of games, with numerous game-winning and buzzer-beating shots in the last three seasons. i wonder if bosh has had the same impact in those situations

Couldn't get any stats for last year or the year before. They're not on there anymore, but for this season.

All stats are with 5 minutes left within 5 points, or in overtime.

Code: Select all

               [b]Floor time stats[/b]
Name    Offensive   Defensive   Difference
BOSH       118.2         104.7          +13.5
WEST       96.3          92.9           +3.4

               [b]Scoring[/b]

Name       FG     FGA    FG%    EFG%   PTS/48minutes
BOSH       14.1    25    .564%  .564%    42.4
WEST       8.9    23.9   .371%  .371%    23.9

               [b]Shot selection[/b]   

Name    Inside    efg%   Jumpshot   efg%
BOSH      59%   .652%      41%      .438%
WEST      29%   .500%      71%      .320%


               [b]Free throw drawing[/b]

NAME       FTM   FTA    FT%  FTA48   PTS48   FGA    DrawF
BOSH        22   24    91.7   15.4   14.1     44      11.4%
WEST         9   12    75.0    8.2    6.1     37       5.4%

                           
               [b]Passing Stats[/b]

NAME      Total assists     Assists/48   TO's   Passing rating   
BOSH            8             5.1          0           3.9
WEST            2             1.4          0           0.0 



               [b]Rebounding [/b]

NAME    O reb  O chances   D reb   D chances    rating
BOSH       9       57        12       76           31.6
WEST       3       75        16       66           28.2

                                 
               [b]Blocks[/b]

NAME      Blocks     Blocks/foul      Block Rating
BOSH       1.9           1.5                   8.6
WEST       0.7           0.33                  3.1



               [b]Turnovers/Ballhandeling[/b]

NAME   O fouls  bad pass  ball handleing TO  Hand Rating
BOSH       1          1          1                 16.8
WEST       2          1          2                  4.6


http://www.82games.com/0708/07NOH10E.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR14E.HTM

[RobertGlory]

also just know that the pace factor for the two teams is similar

new orleans 88.7 26th
toronto 88.1 27th