Half Way Through: Top 25 Small Forwards

[Teddy KGB]

JHo > RJ. More well rounded and far superior defensively while putting up 20ppg on a far superior team to RJ's. RJ's the 2nd best player on his team too and has the benefit of playing with Kidd while Howard has Harris.

[Bit's]

Where is Dunleavy???

I know a lot of people here doesn't like him, but he's having a much better season than Ricky Davis, Moon, Salmons, Battier...

[jeff1624]

JHo > RJ. More well rounded and far superior defensively while putting up 20ppg on a far superior team to RJ's. RJ's the 2nd best player on his team too and has the benefit of playing with Kidd while Howard has Harris.

LOL at the ''far superior defender'' .... I seem to remember kobe posting up 61 in 3 quarters against Howard...

They're equal IMO

Equal scorers
Equal Passers
Howard is the better rebounder
Jefferson is better at getting to the line

And I hate when people uses team records to decide who is the better player, I Guess Josh Howard is better than Wade too....

[miller31time]

Was that ever a question?

Well, you're arguing over semantics, but let me rephrase: Butler's been ridiculous this season and just keeps improving, but Melo is having a better statistical season, IMHO.

[Scalabrine]

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Well, you're arguing over semantics, but let me rephrase: Butler's been ridiculous this season and just keeps improving, but Melo is having a better statistical season, IMHO.

Butler is averaging 22 ppg, 7 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, while shooting 48% from the field and 91% from the line, those are his offensive numbers. Throw in hes playing All Defensive Team defense and youve got one of the best two way players in the league (the best two way player for small forwards).

Anthony has been scoring like crazy (25.5 ppg on 46%) and has vastly improved in both defense and rebounding (something he said he would do). Im a huge Mello fan but I think Butler has led a banged up team that has had three starters out for large portions of a season to one of the better records in the East which gives him a very slight edge over Mello for this season, when Gil comes back I can see Butlers offensive numbers dropping slightly moving im to third on my list but right now hes number 2.

[Cruel_Ruin]

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Butler is averaging 22 ppg, 7 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, while shooting 48% from the field and 91% from the line, those are his offensive numbers. Throw in hes playing All Defensive Team defense and youve got one of the best two way players in the league (the best two way player for small forwards).

Anthony has been scoring like crazy (25.5 ppg on 46%) and has vastly improved in both defense and rebounding (something he said he would do). Im a huge Mello fan but I think Butler has led a banged up team that has had three starters out for large portions of a season to one of the better records in the East which gives him a very slight edge over Mello for this season, when Gil comes back I can see Butlers offensive numbers dropping slightly moving im to third on my list but right now hes number 2.

Not with Artest still around he's not. Ron is still the better defensive player, while Caron is slightly better on offense.

[ajbry]

Good list, particularly the top 3. Caron definitely deserves a lot of credit this season - Melo's overall game isn't as polished but needless to say he's still an excellent player.

Rudy Gay is putting up lesser numbers than Stephen Jackson though and is on a losing team, whereas Jack's numbers (offensive and win-loss) give him an edge and then you can factor in defense and leadership.

[hermes]

good list
i could argue wallace over howard for #5

[pillwenney]

Considering that you could probably make an argument for Ron-Ron against anybody but Lebron, having not even close to the top 10 seems a little ridiculous.

[miller31time]

Butler is averaging 22 ppg, 7 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, while shooting 48% from the field and 91% from the line, those are his offensive numbers. Throw in hes playing All Defensive Team defense and youve got one of the best two way players in the league (the best two way player for small forwards).

Anthony has been scoring like crazy (25.5 ppg on 46%) and has vastly improved in both defense and rebounding (something he said he would do). Im a huge Mello fan but I think Butler has led a banged up team that has had three starters out for large portions of a season to one of the better records in the East which gives him a very slight edge over Mello for this season, when Gil comes back I can see Butlers offensive numbers dropping slightly moving im to third on my list but right now hes number 2.

First of all, shame on you for making me argue that one of my favorite players, Caron Butler, shouldn't be as highly ranked as he is.



Now, my reasoning...

When comparing two players who are both capable of playing big minutes and are both focal points of their respective teams' offenses, it's best to use per-40 numbers to even the playing field.

Per-40, Melo averages over 27 points per game, while Caron averages just over 21. A 6 point difference is huge. Carmelo also averages around 3.5 assists per 40, albeit with high turnovers, and he rebounds better than Caron (7.6 to 6.. He shoots a lower ft%, but he gets to the line far more often (8 times per-40 minutes compared to 4.7).

Shooting-wise, Caron is more efficient (an eFG% of 51.5 and a TS% of 56.9 vs. an eFG% of 48.2 and a TS% of 54.2) but at a lower volume.

Also, Anthony's defensive shortcomings are exaggerated by the media. He really is no worse than average on defense. Butler is a slightly above-average defender who is made to look like a VERY good defender because of his steals. Nothing against Caron. I love the guy, just saying what I think. I watch him 82 times a year and, fundamentally, he's not great (as I've said, probably around average).

So in the end, it's 27/8/3.5 with decent %'s and decent defense against 21/6/4 with good %'s and good defense. I'll take Melo.

[Smills91]

Ron Artest needs to be in the top 5 here.

[SOUL]

Hedo > RJ

[Scalabrine]

Considering that you could probably make an argument for Ron-Ron against anybody but Lebron, having not even close to the top 10 seems a little ridiculous.

Artest has played almost half of his teams games no way has he had the type of impact on his teams play than players above him who have played most of the teams games. Of course Artest would be higher if he was healthy.

[WadeKnicks2010]

The reason people leave out Melo from top 2 is that they watch the Nuggets.. As impressive as his stats are, he is not a team player and is not a player you can win a championship with as your best player unless you have an incredible supporting cast on both ends of the floor. He does not make any attempt to get his teammates involved and his defense is non existant. Plus he despite his FG% he has bad shot selection, some of his shots are just taken because of the "oh i haven't shot in a while, time to get mine!".. He needs to play with the team concept in mind.

My list:
1) LeBron
2) Paul Pierce
3) Caron Butler
4) Carmelo Anthony
5) Richard Jefferson
6) Stephen Jackson
7) Josh Smith
Josh Howard
9) Rudy Gay
10) Tayshaun Prince

[AKBlazerFan]

Hedo is getting NO LOVE. The guy has been awesome this year! Also, my man Outlaw should be top 25 easy. And G Wallace >> RJ easily imo.

[Scalabrine]

The reason people leave out Melo from top 2 is that they watch the Nuggets.. As impressive as his stats are, he is not a team player and is not a player you can win a championship with as your best player unless you have an incredible supporting cast on both ends of the floor. He does not make any attempt to get his teammates involved and his defense is non existant. Plus he despite his FG% he has bad shot selection, some of his shots are just taken because of the "oh i haven't shot in a while, time to get mine!".. He needs to play with the team concept in mind.

My list:
1) LeBron
2) Paul Pierce
3) Caron Butler
4) Carmelo Anthony
5) Richard Jefferson
6) Stephen Jackson
7) Josh Smith
Josh Howard
9) Rudy Gay
10) Tayshaun Prince

I believe your making everything you say up?

You say "if you watch Mello play you will see..."
Do you watch him play because it sure doesnt seem like it.

Also Tayshaun Prince should be nowhere near your top 10 this season with all of the other players that haver played better than him.

Josh Smith is a PF this year, Marvin Williams is their starting Small Forward and Childress backs up both him and Joe Johnson most of the time. You may as well put Kenyon Martin and David Lee on the small forward lists too because they play Small Forward a few minutes every other game.

[nate33]

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Not with Artest still around he's not. Ron is still the better defensive player, while Caron is slightly better on offense.

Butler is more than just slightly better on offense. He is scoring 3 more points per 40 with a TS% that's better by 5 full percentage points while being the focal point of defensive attention. That's a HUGE difference.

They basically have identical numbers in all other categories except Butler grabs 7 rebounds per 40 versus Artest's 5.6. Artest is the better man-to-man defender, but I don't think that makes up for their significant disparity in offense and their minor disparity in rebounding.

[Smills91]

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Butler is more than just slightly better on offense. He is scoring 3 more points per 40 with a TS% that's better by 5 full percentage points while being the focal point of defensive attention. That's a HUGE difference.

They basically have identical numbers in all other categories except Butler grabs 7 rebounds per 40 versus Artest's 5.6. Artest is the better man-to-man defender, but I don't think that makes up for their significant disparity in offense and their minor disparity in rebounding.

Caron is definitely the better offensive player, Artest is definitely the better defensive player.

THIS year only, Butler has a SLIGHT overall nudge on Ron IMO, but over their careers Ron > Caron...but it's close and getting closer every year. Caron is a terrific player. Statistical extapolations are insignificant when you compare two starters who are first or second options on their teams when their minutes are close as it is.