How would Magic Johnson be regarded today if...?

[ThaRegul8r]

A discussion several weeks ago had me wondering something which I'll pose here.

In the first seven years of the 1980s, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was the Lakers' number one option, averaging 23.4 points per game on 58.3 percent shooting from the floor and 61.7 percent true shooting, 8.3 rebounds, 3.3 assists and 2.38 blocked shots, and the Lakers won three NBA championships. Magic Johnson averaged 18.3 points on 54.2 percent shooting, 7.7 rebounds, 10.7 assists, and 2.21 steals while Kareem was the #1 option, and after Pat Riley made him the focal point of the offense over an aging Kareem in 1986-87, he responded with a career-best 23.9 ppg after having only one previous season where he averaged 20 ppg, and that in a season he only played 37 games, and won his first MVP award. Afterwards, he followed up with averages of 19.6, 22.5, 22.3 and 19.4 ppg, and they'd win another championship to make it two with Magic as the focal point.

My question is this. What if either Kareem had been born later or Magic had been born earlier so that Magic didn't catch Kareem towards the end of his career, and thus the team did not need increasing scoring from him to win, but he still would have done everything else? How would we he be regarded today? How would you regard him today if he didn't averaged 20 ppg for a full season but still did what the team needed to win? Where would he be on your G.O.A.T. list?

[HarlemHeat37]

it wouldn't really matter to me..I never look at Magic's point totals or PPG..he still would have had the same impact on the team IMO..Kareem in his prime in a few of the seasons was putting up unbelievable numbers, but his team couldn't beat a few great teams in the NBA..he would have needed Magic regardless IMO, just like so many other great players need other greats..

I consider Kareem to be better than Magic regardless..

[penbeast0]

Yes, don't think of Magic as a great scorer (an efficient one, but not a big point producer), rather as a great distributor, rebounder, and team player who made his teammates better. Averaging 18 ppg or 21 ppg is not that big a difference considering what else he brings to the floor,

[Doctor MJ]

I don't know if the scoring is specifically the issue.

I'll say it flat out: If I viewed Magic's place on the Showtime Lakers as being less important than I currently do, he wouldn't be as high on my list. So if Kareem overshadowed Magic longer, for whatever reason, but the team success didn't improve over what we actually experienced, it's conceivable Magic wouldn't be even in my top 10.

[penbeast0]

Makes sense . . . question, if Kareem stays the man, does Magic get tired of playing the number two role like Kobe did (not a knock at Kobe; great players have to have egos . . . look at MJ) or does his naturally positive personality keep things from deteriorating?

[TrueLAfan]

I think it's complicated. You need to clear up an important question...are we talking about Kareem being as good as he was between 1981 and 1985 in those "extra" years with Magic...or are we just talking about Kareem being "born earlier"...which means that you basically shift Kareem's career back 5 or 6 years?

Between 1981 and 1985, Magic was already more or less as valuable as Kareem; probably very slightly more valuable. It's very, very close. But that's Kareem at about 80-85% of his peak. Kareem was about more like 95-100% of his peak in 1980 and in the five years before. If you push Kareem back five years, so that his 1975-86 seasons line up with Magic's 1980-1991 seasons, I think the Lakers win more titles. And, yeah, I think Magic's overall standing is diminished a bit. It would mean that in the first six Kareem/Magic years, Kareem would be a 26.3/13.5/4.6 players with three and a half blocks a game. Kareem would be the superior player pretty much every year. Then Kareem would "drop" to 23.9/7.9/3.0/2.2. When that actually happened (from 1981 to 1986), the MVP rankings of the two players looked like this

1981--Kareem 3rd (Magic injured)
1982--Magic 8th, Kareem 10th
1983--Magic 3rd, Kareem10th
1984--Magic 3rd, Kareem 4th
1985--Magic 2nd, Kareem 4th
1986--Magic 3rd, Kareem 5th

Magic was considered to be very slightly better...but he was never the actual MVP. Would Magic have stepped up his scoring as he did after 1986? If he didn't need to? (Kareem would still be a 24 ppg player in Magic's final five years.)

I figure Magic would have dropped a little bit...I think he would have won fewer MVPs. He was terrific at accepting more of a scoring and leadership burden in later years...but if he didn't need to, I doubt it would have happened. He'd probably be considered a top 7-9 player instead of a top 4-6 player. Just my .02.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think it's complicated. You need to clear up an important question...are we talking about Kareem being as good as he was between 1981 and 1985 in those "extra" years with Magic...or are we just talking about Kareem being "born earlier"...which means that you basically shift Kareem's career back 5 or 6 years?

For this thought experiment I'm basically trying to align Magic and Kareem's careers so that they play together earlier in Kareem's career rather than towards the end and Kareem's decline phase so that you have an earlier-in-his-prime Kareem playing with Magic so that it wasn't necessary for Magic to become the focal point of the offense since Kareem wouldn't be aging yet and could still be the #1 option.

If you push Kareem back five years, so that his 1975-86 seasons line up with Magic's 1980-1991 seasons

You got exactly what I'm trying to do here.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Imagine Alcindor being like 24 when Magic entered the league, would they have been able to play together for so long? Or would they have started a battle about who's the #1 killing the team chemistry?

[Warspite]

From everything I have ever read or seen I have never thought that Magic cared about scoring.

magic cared about Winning
magic cared about running the offense


Magic is also a great leader in that he could lead by making Kareem agree with him. I also dont believe there ever was alot of friction between them because in the end they both wanted to win.

When Riley wanted to make Magic the #1 option Magic went to Kareem and they both agreed that was what was best for the team. I think they both had a great relationship and thats one of the greatest achievements of Magics career.

I also believe that the press loved Magic and disliked Kareem so it realy doesnt matter what they are doing because Magic is going to get the credit.

If prime Kareem and Magic played together and that team won 7-8-9-10 titles instead of 5 I believe there would be enough awards to around.

IMHO we might think more of Magic if he has 8 rings regardless of how many PPG he has. Theres little doubt that Magic would have more assists and more APG.

[Luv those Knicks]

Imagine Alcindor being like 24 when Magic entered the league, would they have been able to play together for so long? Or would they have started a battle about who's the #1 killing the team chemistry?

Magic wasn't one to battle about being #1. In fact, I think he missed Kareem during his later years with the Lakers. I think he enjoyed sharing the spotlight.

and I don't think anyone ever said "Magic improved his game when he got his first MVP", cause Magic didn't do anything that everyone didn't already know that he could do.

so I don't think it would have hurt Magic's standing in all time comparisons if he'd never averaged 20 PPG. Once Magic won that finals MVP and played every position including center, he was regarded as one of the greats, hek, even before that happened, he was looked at as amazing.


I don't think Magic would have been Pippen to Jordan, in your situation, I think he would have stayed Magic - one of the top 10 players ever to play the game. Maybe top 5.