Best LeBron comparison: Elgin Baylor?

[Point forward]

In the past, a lot of ppl have compared LBJ to MJ, Magic or Oscar. How about comparing LeBron to Elgin Baylor?

FYI, 6-5, 220 lbs. Baylor was the first dominant SF of the NBA. He was the first HOF guy who played above the rim: even if he did not dunk as much as Dr. J, he had MJ-like body control and could twist the ball into the basket. He had a lethal midrange jump shot, and was deadly in the low post, where he could post up centers like Bill Russell. He was the most prolific scorer EVER (yes, that includes MJ. Even MJ never averaged 38 points per game!) not named Wilt. He was a terrific rebounder. People like Sharman or

Hawkins testify that he also had good handles and and was a great passer. He was the first NBA player to finish in the Top 5 in scoring, rebounding, assists and FT%. On D, he was not stellar, but ok. He shot 78% from the line.

In addition, his best game was dropping 61 points in Game 6 of the 1962 NBA Finals on the big bad Celtics. Neither Russell on C nor the Fs Sanders (=Oakley), Loscutoff (=Bowen) or Ramsey (=Vinnie Johnson) could stop him, and he fouled the Fs all out. Of course, Baylor never won a ring, but it was hardly his fault most of the time. He was considered a natural leader and a great guy to have.

Strong yet athletic, great body control, deadly from all areas, good ballhandler and passer, natural alpha male, unique 61-point game. Remind you of THAT Cavs player with #23? Tell me.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/baylor_bio.html

[penbeast0]

Stylistically, I'd say Connie Hawkins though LeBron doesn't have the ridiculous hands and LeBron seems to have superior conditioning and consistency. Impact on the NBA, yeah, Baylor is a nice comp . . . .

[TrueLAfan]

Impact, yes, but they are/were pretty different as players. Baylor was a SF that crashed the boards like a PF. Elgin played above the rim as much as contemporary style and physicality would allow...because of the violent nature of the interior game in the 60s, Elgin used his physical skills to get rebounds more than LeBron. I think LeBron could rebound like Baylor (or close), but he'd have to change his game substantially.

And in modern shoes and real weight, I think Elgin would be a lot like a bulkier Shawn Marion...he'd list at 6'7" 235 to 240. I think that reflects that type of rebounding Elgin would give, too...he'd be a 9-11 rpg player today. He kind of combines Paul Pierce's offense with the rebounding of Shawn Marion.

[jab]

A taller 'Big O' on steroids IMO

If Cleveland had a real GM LeBron would already be averaging 27-12-10 with a few blocks and steals on the side

[tsherkin]

Baylor posted too much to be like Lebron, I think; James is still very face-up and perimeter-oriented, I don't think he does nearly enough work down low to be similar, nor does he rebound as much.

[Point forward]

I reckon that I must see more of Baylor before he blew out his knees. On the games I have seen (1969, 1970), Elgin had quite a varied game and quite mixed up his post / perimeter game.

[kooldude]

he's not more prolific than Jordan. Baylor never led the league in PPG and even if you take away Wilt, he would have only led in 2 years out of 12 years. Jordan did that for every season except his rookie and soph years.

And his career high is only 1 pt higher than Jordan's. That's just because Baylor played in an era that scored almost 10 more points per game than Jordan's time.

[D.Brasco]

Yeah elgin was not a more prolific scorer than jordan. prolific should refer to career wise. Elgin's 38 ppg season came with him playing only 40 games i believe and some sources don't list that season as counting in the score books.

I still think oscar robertson is the best comparison for lebron.

[ThaRegul8r]

Elgin's 38 ppg season came with him playing only 40 games i believe

That's because Elgin was called up to the Army that year, which limited the amount of games he could play.

[TrueLAfan]

Yeah elgin was not a more prolific scorer than jordan. prolific should refer to career wise. Elgin's 38 ppg season came with him playing only 40 games i believe and some sources don't list that season as counting in the score books.

I still think oscar robertson is the best comparison for lebron.

I agree--Oscar has better passing and a little less rebounding. They're similar in build too; Oscar is about an inch smaller and about 15 pounds lighter.

[NetsForce]

Lebron = Bulky more aggressive Lamar Odom.

[D.Brasco]

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That's because Elgin was called up to the Army that year, which limited the amount of games he could play.

..and? its still a very limited sample size no matter why he missed it. Elgin is one of the great scorers but i doubt even he would say he's second only to wilt. To be fair if he hadn't injured his knees he could have entered the conversation with wilt and jordan.

[kooldude]

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..and? its still a very limited sample size no matter why he missed it. Elgin is one of the great scorers but i doubt even he would say he's second only to wilt. To be fair if he hadn't injured his knees he could have entered the conversation with wilt and jordan.

but wasn't he already 35 when he injured it? He's out of his prime then and wouldn't have made a difference

[realball]

I've never seen Baylor play, but I've been told by others that Baylor was an overrated player who was only good at scoring and was somewhat selfish (I also hear these things of Dominique Wilkins). He had alpha male syndrome, which is one good reason why Wilt and West never won a title until he retired. Of course, this is other people's opinions.

Lebron doesn't strike me as the alpha male/scorer, he is more of a play-maker who'd get others involved. Even if that's not true, Lebron will always be the alpha male, because he will be the clear-cut best player in the league at some point, unlike Baylor.

[D.Brasco]

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but wasn't he already 35 when he injured it? He's out of his prime then and wouldn't have made a difference

I think he was actually only 29 or 30 when it happened.

[TrueLAfan]

Elgin first hurt his knee in the 1965 playoffs. He was thirty. It messed him up for an entire season, and then he came back to have four more seasons at about 90% of his previous value.

Elgin was certainly an alpha male/leader type...but he was, IMO, a better player than Nique. Better rebounder, much better passer, slightly better defender (Elgin is average to slightly above average in that area). Elgin was a smart player too--he spent a lot of time in the post against much bigger guys, got a ton of rebounds, and didn't foul. He passed well. When his knees started to give out and didn't have the same hops or agility, he adjusted his game very successfully.

Elgin wasn't a high percentage shooter, but he went to the line a lot (especially in his early years), so his efficiency is okay. He had range and a varied offensive repertoire. The Lakers of the 60s had a series of horrible Cs...so bad you really can't imagine. They had Rudy LaRusso at PF, who was okay but whose numbers were elevated by pace. The team had a lot of the problems of the current Nets...great backcourt/perimeter players, garbage on the inside. It's a testament to just how good Baylor and West were that the Lakers would knock off 50 wins about half the time with guys like Jim Krebs, Ray Felix, Howie Joliff, Gene Wiley and Jim Barnes at the 5. The best C's the Lakers had in Elgin's first decade were a young Leroy Ellis (who was more of a PF) and Darrall Imhoff (who was the opposing C when Wilt got 100).

Adjusted for pace, Elgin knocked off 24-4-9 seasons with regularity, and clocked in more than a couple years that were closer to 28-5-11.

[Myth_Breaker]

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..and? its still a very limited sample size no matter why he missed it. Elgin is one of the great scorers but i doubt even he would say he's second only to wilt. To be fair if he hadn't injured his knees he could have entered the conversation with wilt and jordan.

Why are you using so weak arguments?

1) How can you call it a "very limited sample" if we talk about majority of the season - 48 games to be precise?
2) If anything, breaks for military service only make it harder for NBA player, taking him out of the rhytm and limiting training time - it should be obvious for everyone.
3) Despite limited number of games, this season's PPG average does count in the books since Baylor scored enough to get above statistical minimum of total points. If you saw Elgin not being listed as 2nd scorer of 1961/62 season, it's because back then point totals, not averages determined run for scoring crown. It's worth to know such basic facts.
4) And even if we - wrongfully - reject Baylor's exploits from that season, it still was surrounded by 2 >34-ppg seasons: next evidence how unbelievable scorer Elgin was before injuries (and great for some time even after them).
5) Did someone mention here that except 61 points Baylor in that famous Finals game vs. Celtics got also 22 rebounds?! He at the same time fought against double coverage including Boston's defensive ace Satch Sanders AND battled with bigger player, also being Top-2 rebounder of all-time in Russell - with such a great success!
6) In summary: even if Elgin wasn't the greatest scorer of all-time, he should certainly be inluded in conversation - even despite injuries.
7) As to OP: maybe we should consider LeBron mix of Bird (court vision, passing, size...) and Baylor (strength and athleticism compared to opponents, ability to penetrate and draw fouls...)- while of course not enjoying all qualities of both? The more I think about it, the more I like it: more than popular Magic/Jordan mix comparison.

[Myth_Breaker]

[quote="TrueLAfan"][/quote]

By mere adjusting for pace you're taking into account only adverse aspects of "Baylor at slower pace=in later era" scenario. What about these issues:
- if Elgin played in 20-, let alone 30-team league, it'd be almost impossible to pair him with scorer of West's caliber; and it alone would give him a couple of shots/points extra.
- if he played at slower pace, it would also raise his shooting percentages.
- not to mention - it's maybe speculative, but worth noting - that modern medicine could help him overcome injuries and return to the game as a player dominating also from physical/athletic standpoint.

Even if taking into consideration only first two factors, we can draw conclusion that Baylor moved to e.g. the 90s would be >30-ppg scorer in his prime.

[TrueLAfan]

Sorry, Myth. No on every count.

--The assumption that playing alongside Jerry West hurt Elgin Baylor's numbers in any way is questionable to say the least. Elgin Baylor was in the top 3 in shot attempts eight times in his career. Among players who played 300 NBA games, he's first (all time!) in FGA per game. (Players 2-5 are Iverson, Jordan, Wilt, and Maravich.) There's no evidence to suggest he'd shoot or score "more" in some other system or with other players; he's already putting up more shots than anyone in history. Given that Jerry West was a borderline elite distributor and pulled away perimeter defenders that could double Elgin, there's a good chance (a far better one, IMO) that Baylor would get fewer good shoots or looks on a team without a player like West.
--Pace had little to no effect on Baylor's shooting. Looking at team shot attempts per game and Baylor's shooting percentage, we see:
1961--106.7 spg; Baylor shot .430
1963--99.4 spg; Baylor shot .453
1965--93.0 spg; Baylor shot .401
1967--104.5 spg; Baylor shot .429
1969--92.9 spg; Baylor shot .447
These were all seasons where Elgin played 70 or more games. There is no correlation between pace and shooting percentage/efficiency for Elgin.

I'm not saying that Elgin couldn't/wouldn't have scored 30 ppg occasionally in the modern era. There are arguments you could make for that--but you're not making them.