Top Offensive and Defensive Players Ever

[andrewww]

besides big names like : hakeem and russell... these guys are among the most underrated defensive players ever (all 3 imo are among the best ever):

-gary payton
-scottie pippen
-dennis rodman

[big123]

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You keep mentioning his size like it matters. It doesn't. Don't know how to make it more clear than that. We are not rating players on how adorably small they were, we are rating them based on how good they were.

Yeah it does in my opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine. I think it factors in tremendously. For Iverson to do what he's done in his career is remarkable given he's at a disadvantage everytime he steps on the court. He has no business doing what he does, but still does it at an extremely high level for 11 straight years and still going strong. He's probably taking the biggest beating in NBA history and still leads the league in minutes almost every year. Tops at getting to the line year after year with the likes of Shaq and D. Howard with no business of being there. To be physically gifted or on par with the league and be great is easier than to go out at a big disadvanatge and still be great. You either appreciate it or not. You really can't compare anyone to Iverson because there has never been anyone like him. Some of the players I see him compared with cannot even be a fair comparison and it shouldn't. It takes much more effort and willingness to do what he has done over his career because he has no choice. He has to work harder than anyone and give it is all every night to even be respectable, let alone one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history. He is the Rocky of the NBA Again, you either appreciate it or you don't and can keep on comparing players as if they were all equally statured at their positions and equally giftly talented. Carry on..

[big123]

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Okay so I'm clear on where you stand: Lack of beneficial size is something to be factored in positively when evaluating players, efficiency is not.

Not necessarily positively, but factored in, absolutely. Shaq and Wilt's size played a part of how dominate and efficient they were. Absolutely.

[sh00n]

Surprised Rodman was left off so many top defensive lists.

[JordansBulls]

Wilt's defense is laughably underrated here.

He's not only the greatest offensive player ever, he's top three defensively at worst.He's one of the few players in the history of the game who could dominate without scoring big--and he had that incredible offense besides.

Another one seriously overrated on these boards--Dennis Rodman...

Wilt has a case in the season but in the playoffs that is far from true. Jordan has everyone beat in the playoffs by at least 3.5 ppg.

Here are some scoring records to give.
ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 22 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single season playoff average: West 40.6
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Career: Kareem 38387
- Most Total Points Season: Wilt 4029
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most Total Points Finals: West 1679
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 60 point games: Wilt 32
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: Manu 24
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: LBJ 25
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: KB 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

[TrueLAfan]

Agree about Wilt on D. Wilt was, IMO, the best offensive and defensive player ever to play. At different times though...for one year or two on both sides, it's MJ. Except maybe 1967. I've got to go with Wilt's 1967 being the greatest offensive and defensive season of all time.

Agree with West over Kobe on both ends; not so much about Bird. Kobe is a slightly higher volume scorer than West; West is a much better passer and is more efficient and has more range. (Please don't mention TS% until you've made a conservative estimate of West's threes and factored that in. Thank you!) Kobe may be better on D than West when he puts his mind to it, but that's not often, or at least not often enough. West is more like Jordan; maximum effort on both ends close to 100% of the time. To be honest, I think Kobe's D is very good but overrated; maybe it's that he doesn't "feel it" regularly enough. Garnett is a muccuh, much better defender IMO; so is Bowen. Agree that Rodman is overrated on D as well.

Overall, I'd say something like

Offense:

1. Wilt (24 pts. + 8 assists + .683 fg% + ~ 4 offensive rebounds a game in '67)
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4-5. Magic/Bird
6. Oscar
7. West
8. Barkley
9. Erving
10. Nash/Dirk

HM: English, Kobe, Gervin, Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, McAdoo, LeBron, Malone/Stockton

I'm with DoctorMJ about efficiency and eFG% and TS%. That disqualifies guys like Dominique and Barry and Baylor, although they could score a ton. Doesn't mean they weren't great offensive players, but they weren't as great as elite players. I have a hard time thinking Rick Barry is significantly better on offense than Alex English...Barry had five feet more range and was a very slightly better passer. English finished better, and was much more efficient. Allan Iverson is a terrific player--I think his value is something that statistics underrate--but he was not as good of an offensive player as Charles Barkley.

And hey--some love for Steve Nash is in order. Perhaps I've missed something, but he's averaging close to 12 assists a game, and is astronomically efficient for a guard. And on offense, as with other things, you have to look beyond statistics too. Nash totally controls a game without having a set offensive scheme; he's more Magic than Stockton in that respect. Same with Dirk...look, he's not my cup of tea as a player overall. but he's got terrific range, shoots close to 50% from the field, goes to the line a lot, and converts at close to 90% from there. They're not top 3 MVP candidates because of their D.

Not feeling it for Shaq in the top 10 either. High percentage shooter, good passer for his position. He was terrific in his peak years. But so was Drob...who was as good as or better of a passer, was just as efficient and scored just as much.

Defense:

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Jordan
4. Jones
5. Kareem
6. Hakeem
7. Moncrief
8. West
9. Pippen
10. Thurmond

HM: Frazier, Garnett, Payton, Rodman, Havlicek, Wallace, McHale, DeBusschere, Mutombo,
Cooper

Kills me to leave Clyde out of the top 10. Hate it! 9-11 are so close.

Re: "feeling it." When Wilt was feeling it, he was the best defensive player ever to play basketball. Period. The difference was that he pretty much "felt it" for entire seasons. It's heresy to put him over Russell on D, but that's how the chips fall for me.

[Point forward]

As the resident Russell homer here, I don't think that Wilt was better than Russell on D. Bill had it all -- man-to-man D, help D, blocking shots, altering shots, and blocking a ball SOFTLY (i.e. it stayed inbounds) for a quick fast break. Wilt was also a great shotblocker, but rather flung it into the 10th row than keeping it in the game. (last account is by Van Breda Kolff, ok, but still legit) Also, until 1966, Wilt was not stellar on D. Wilt's team mate Tom Meschery said:

When I got in the

[Doctor MJ]

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Not necessarily positively, but factored in, absolutely. Shaq and Wilt's size played a part of how dominate and efficient they were. Absolutely.

If you're comparing two players, everything you factor it has a positive or negative value.

Shaq's size is obviously a huge part of why he was so good. If Shaq were 5 feet all, he wouldn't be on anyone's list. However, Shaq wasn't 5 feet tall, and hence he was able to dominate the best players in the world, hence he deserves consideration on this list.

Bottom line, rating who the best players in the game are is about what players can do, not about how impressive it is that they can do what they do considering their lack of talent.

[Doctor MJ]

TrueLA, you're clearly going with a best season style approach. Were I to do that Wilt would certainly be on my defensive top 5, and also Nash would be an utter lock for my offensive top 10.

No one's commented on it specifically, but I had all non-big men in my offense list, and all big men in my defense list. The latter I'm assuming is self-explanatory, but I'm sure people disagree with the former so I'll put it out there:

Being able to function with the ball in your hands full court, as well as being able to shoot from range, those are big pluses in my mind. Hence when a guy shoots at volume (or the equivalent in distributor impact) and efficiency as a perimeter player, I'm significantly more impressed than I am for a big man. Now there's not a ton of guys in history who do this, so it wouldn't take too long for me to start including big men if the list continued. However those guys who can are to me the kings of offense.

[big123]

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If you're comparing two players, everything you factor it has a positive or negative value.

Shaq's size is obviously a huge part of why he was so good. If Shaq were 5 feet all, he wouldn't be on anyone's list. However, Shaq wasn't 5 feet tall, and hence he was able to dominate the best players in the world, hence he deserves consideration on this list.

Bottom line, rating who the best players in the game are is about what players can do, not about how impressive it is that they can do what they do considering their lack of talent.

Sure, I'm not trying to discount anybody or anything. The lists here are pretty good and I'm not protesting that. I was just saying in my opinion Iverson will go down as the better offensive player than Barkley, simply because 1) He will have put up way better numbers offensively when hes done and 2) He was more impressive in my eyes on offense, mainly because of his durablility and stature. He is a midgit among giants and still gets his. If we were talking all around game, Barkley was a beast and I would take him in a heartbeat. He was the round of rebound. But I'm not trying to compare the two because obviously Iverson cannot or even try to do what Barkley has done and that's just the way it is.